What If

[Rapier]

Bush decided to not to pass the baton?

[bob]

Hillory would shoot him herself.

[mbossman2]

highly unlikely...

[Kuch]

Nonsensical question.

What if Hillary decided she was going to be the next President whether elected or not?
What if Bob did the same thing?

We could go on and on...

[David-M]

How would that happen Rapier? All the members of the military deciding they are going to support the President with a military coup? The citizens would storm the steps of the White House and all other federal buildings before that happens.

Check your history on how Ceausescu was overthrown in Timisoara, Romania. History would repeat itself here in the USA. It's really good reading. My wife's father was one of the primary leaders of the 1989 revolution to overthrow Ceausescu. My wife's father and his entire family, including my wife, were on a death list to be hung had the revolution failed to overthrow Ceausescu. See how governments, like what some liberals want, operate?...real nice eh? I would be willing to bet 99% of the young liberals out there educated in public schools by liberal teachers know nothing of this revolution. Why?....quite simply, the story of this revolution puts a bad light on communism and socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C5%9Fescu#Revolution

[Rapier]

How would that happen Rapier? All the members of the military deciding they are going to support the President with a military coup? The citizens would storm the steps of the White House and all other federal buildings before that happens.


What is the contingency for a POTUS elect becoming unavailable or for some reason unfit by acclaim?

Horseshoes?

[bob]

If elected then the Vice would get the job - but not sure if the full term.
If not elected then surely the other would win the election.

I hope you are not looking for ways to keep the inept Bush in office.

[Rapier]

If elected then the Vice would get the job - but not sure if the full term.
If not elected then surely the other would win the election.

I hope you are not looking for ways to keep the inept Bush in office.

What's the diff? The people who pushed for US involvement in Iraq are still behind the curtain. As is the money behind them.

[Rapier]

If elected then the Vice would get the job - but not sure if the full term.
If not elected then surely the other would win the election.

I hope you are not looking for ways to keep the inept Bush in office.

Like I said, is there really such a thing as POTUS elect succession?

[bob]

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/09_18_01_bushbin.html

[mbossman2]

Like I said, is there really such a thing as POTUS elect succession?

The president (and by extension his administration) is elected to office upon election via the electoral college, that administration is the next president.

While there is no case law on the subject (not surprisingly), I believe that the court would rule (when it is brought up to challenge - and believe me this would bypass all courts and go straight to the USSC) that the administration elect would be, for all intents and purposes, be the president and the country would follow that line of succession: president, vice president and then speaker of the house.

Bush refusing to leave office is just stroke fantasies for the conspiracy theory crowd.

[Rapier]

The president (and by extension his administration) is elected to office upon election via the electoral college, that administration is the next president.

While there is no case law on the subject (not surprisingly), I believe that the court would rule (when it is brought up to challenge - and believe me this would bypass all courts and go straight to the USSC) that the administration elect would be, for all intents and purposes, be the president and the country would follow that line of succession: president, vice president and then speaker of the house.

Bush refusing to leave office is just stroke fantasies for the conspiracy theory crowd.

It's called speculation. You should try it. If the country was placed in a grave situation I'm sure the public could be convinced that changing administrations was not good for the country and in fact bad for the country.

Maybe some sort of widespread recurring Pearl Harbor like event.

Who in their right mind would speculate that after two planes crashed into the Twin Towers not a trace of any of the 4 black boxes would be located/found?

[bob]

American Airlines Flight 77, which was flown into the Pentagon, and United Flight 93, which crashed near Somerset, Pa. - were recovered within days.

Since they could hardly find much left of the other planes it is not unreasonable not to find the recorders either.
Who cares - I doubt there would be anything useful after being crushed by that much mass.

[Rapier]

American Airlines Flight 77, which was flown into the Pentagon, and United Flight 93, which crashed near Somerset, Pa. - were recovered within days.

Since they could hardly find much left of the other planes it is not unreasonable not to find the recorders either.
Who cares - I doubt there would be anything useful after being crushed by that much mass.
Vacuum thinking. WHO CARES.


Where did the boxes go? Not even a trace of them?

Built to Survive
In many airline accidents, the only devices that survive are the crash-survivable memory units (CSMUs) of the flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders. Typically, the rest of the recorders' chassis and inner components are mangled. The CSMU is a large cylinder that bolts onto the flat portion of the recorder. This device is engineered to withstand extreme heat, violent crashes and tons of pressure. In older magnetic-tape recorders, the CSMU is inside a rectangular box.


Did you read that? BUILT TO SURVIVE, not built to disappear.

Built to survive means not only will it remain intact enough to be found it will remain intact enough to retrieve information from critical to the reasons for and events leading up to a crash.

Most cartoons have more reality than what "just happened" on 9/11.

[bob]

WHO CARES!!!!!
They found the other 2 - the least viewed crashes at that
Recorders were not built to withstand being buired under the world trade centers.
WTF to you expect to find on them. If you care then look at the video tapes - listen to the passanger cell phone calls
You are fucked in the head. The second plane hit on live TV--What did you miss?

[David-M]

What is the contingency for a POTUS elect becoming unavailable or for some reason unfit by acclaim?

Horseshoes?

I thought the original question was how would he remain in office. I'm still waiting for an answer.

[David-M]

I love a good conspiracy. Its just amazing what some people can be led to believe. If you want something to be true hard enough....then it does become reality for many of those same people. I wont go into religion, UFO's or other such beliefs.

[Kuch]

You can’t argue logic with someone who subscribes to a conspiracy theory. Logic and facts only cement their reasoning that there must have been a very thorough cover-up.

The fact that the flight data recorders weren’t recovered leaves the door open for something nefarious despite the fact that they weren’t meant to withstand being buried under the WTC tower (as bob pointed out). Even if they HAD been found but no data was retrievable, it would still leave room for the conspiracy theorists who would insinuate the government purposely destroyed the contents.

There’s no winning with someone who wholeheartedly subscribes to a conspiracy theory. The fact that you’ll argue means you’re all probably in on it too…:eek:

[Rapier]

You can’t argue logic with someone who subscribes to a conspiracy theory. Logic and facts only cement their reasoning that there must have been a very thorough cover-up.

The fact that the flight data recorders weren’t recovered leaves the door open for something nefarious despite the fact that they weren’t meant to withstand being buried under the WTC tower (as bob pointed out). Even if they HAD been found but no data was retrievable, it would still leave room for the conspiracy theorists who would insinuate the government purposely destroyed the contents.

There’s no winning with someone who wholeheartedly subscribes to a conspiracy theory. The fact that you’ll argue means you’re all probably in on it too…:eek:


Dumb and dumber. How naive can you be? The 1, 2, 3, 4 boxes were made to survive and work. They might not work.
But they would not disappear.
But they would not disappear.
But they would not disappear.
But they would not disappear. Freaking period.

Firemen said 1, 2, 3 black boxes were found.

Who would be more likely to lie? Firemen or the FBI?

[Rapier]

I thought the original question was how would he remain in office. I'm still waiting for an answer.

If the country was placed in a grave situation I'm sure the public could be convinced that changing administrations was not good for the country and in fact bad for the country.

Maybe some sort of widespread recurring Pearl Harbor like event.

[David-M]

...deleted

[David-M]

The citizens certainly can be convinced of most anything if it is repeated by the media enough times. Look at the difference in how they are covering McCain versus Obama. The media is doing everything they can short of coming right out and saying "Vote for Obama".

[Rapier]

You can’t argue logic with someone who subscribes to a conspiracy theory. Logic and facts only cement their reasoning that there must have been a very thorough cover-up.

The fact that the flight data recorders weren’t recovered leaves the door open for something nefarious despite the fact that they weren’t meant to withstand being buried under the WTC tower (as bob pointed out). Even if they HAD been found but no data was retrievable, it would still leave room for the conspiracy theorists who would insinuate the government purposely destroyed the contents.

There’s no winning with someone who wholeheartedly subscribes to a conspiracy theory. The fact that you’ll argue means you’re all probably in on it too…:eek:

Only morons believe false flag operations are make believe and "conspiracy theory." Only a moron would believe 4 black boxes could disappear without a trace.

Only morons believe President Chaney and Rumsfeld and company wouldn't or were incapable of staging a Pearl Harbor incident to invade Iraq after advocating invading Iraq for almost thirty years.

[Kuch]

Like I said Rapier, you can live in your world of fantasy and make believe all you want.

Facts and logic are no match for your powers of speculation.

Did 4 black boxes disappear? Did they? I thought we already covered that not all 4 were destroyed…

But that’s O.K. You know since I don’t agree with you that I must be part of the cover up…

[David-M]

Rapier...do you really believe that flight data recorders or flight voice recorders "blackboxes" are made from some sort of magic material that cannot melt or be destroyed from multiple severe impacts or extreme G forces? Do you also believe it is easy to find fragments or melted components of a blackbox amongst at least a million tons of building debris?

[WJWheels]

There's a few hundred bodies that haven't yet been recovered.

[Rapier]

Rapier...do you really believe that flight data recorders or flight voice recorders "blackboxes" are made from some sort of magic material that cannot melt or be destroyed from multiple severe impacts or extreme G forces? Do you also believe it is easy to find fragments or melted components of a blackbox amongst at least a million tons of building debris?


Why would they melt? Did you ever see an aluminum can disappear after being squeezed to death?

If something extremely rare happens, such as the complete
destruction of a black box that is built to survive the worst airplane crashes and resulting circumstances, one has to live with that. A second? A lot of nonsense and leg pulling. A third. No way. A fourth? A fourth.

Remember each of the FOUR boxes of the two planes that hit the WTC towers went on paths totally independent of the others.

[bob]

First of all the black boxes are not black. Possibally the firemen were thinking of their downtown city girls.:eek:
You can burn an aluminum can in a campfire.
If finding the boxes were so important they may have sifted all the rubble - BUT GET A CLUE!!! millions of people saw what happened - braindead - they were not important enough to save tons of rubble mixed with body parts until the smell coverrd hundreds of square miles of New York city.

[Rapier]

First of all the black boxes are not black. Possibally the firemen were thinking of their downtown city girls.:eek:
You can burn an aluminum can in a campfire.
If finding the boxes were so important they may have sifted all the rubble - BUT GET A CLUE!!! millions of people saw what happened - braindead - they were not important enough to save tons of rubble mixed with body parts until the smell coverrd hundreds of square miles of New York city.

Millions did see but, like you, they don't, or don't want to admit, why or how it happened.

The importance of the 4 black boxes is shown by the fact that they are missing.

ginkgo biloba extract (GBE)

[David-M]

Millions did see but, like you, they don't, or don't want to admit, why or how it happened.

The importance of the 4 black boxes is shown by the fact that they are missing.

ginkgo biloba extract (GBE)

Negative evidence, or lack of evidence never proves something. That is basic logic.

So in your book, not seeing a UFO's proves of their existence because the government could be hiding UFO's. Think about your illogic.


So if the flight data recorders were found....what would it show? It would show just how erratically some ragheads can fly an airplane into a building. What would the flight voice recorder show? You would hear them yelling about how Allah is great in Arabic. Sorry about the racial slurs, but these guys truly are assholes and deserve to be called this. So heyhey, pull you head out of your ass and realize these guys deserve to be called nothing less...before you go and place yet one more label on me.

BTW, the flight data recorders are located in the back of the plane....so the chances of them burning to a crisp from the fuel, mostly in the wings, is pretty damn good. Remember the horizontal and vertical steel members of the building bent from the heat, causing the pancake effect of one floor taking down another. Well DUH!...if the burning fuel is enough to melt steel beams then what the hell do you think happened to the recorders?

Would the flight data recorders reveal any great government cover up?....like what?

[Rapier]

Negative evidence, or lack of evidence never proves something. That is basic logic.

So in your book, not seeing a UFO's proves of their existence because the government could be hiding UFO's. Think about your illogic.


So if the flight data recorders were found....what would it show? It would show just how erratically some ragheads can fly an airplane into a building. What would the flight voice recorder show? You would hear them yelling about how Allah is great in Arabic. Sorry about the racial slurs, but these guys truly are assholes and deserve to be called this. So heyhey, pull you head out of your ass and realize these guys deserve to be called nothing less...before you go and place yet one more label on me.

BTW, the flight data recorders are located in the back of the plane....so the chances of them burning to a crisp from the fuel, mostly in the wings, is pretty damn good. Remember the horizontal and vertical steel members of the building bent from the heat, causing the pancake effect of one floor taking down another. Well DUH!...if the burning fuel is enough to melt steel beams then what the hell do you think happened to the recorders?

Would the flight data recorders reveal any great government cover up?....like what?

You really just don't understand much. Do you? Now you have the black boxes burning to a crisp from the heat generated by jet fuel, which is btw, essentially kerosene.

You, Bob and Kuch should make a butty movie.

A good title would be The Three Thimbles.

[bob]

You really just don't understand much. Do you? Now you have the black boxes burning to a crisp from the heat generated by jet fuel, which is btw, essentially kerosene.

You, Bob and Kuch should make a butty movie.

A good title would be The Three Thimbles.

Kuch and me make a what movie?? "Butty??" I am sure he thinks I am an asshole but (pun intended), you have your head up your ASS.

Let us help you with your lack of logic.
4 planes all used in the attack. 2 planes with data recorders found (as expected) and 2 planes not found (as should be expected).
You must have some great theory on how Bush did it.
Tell me this. If it was planned then why did bush freeze in the headlights and take shelter in a school- surrounded by kids - ducking under a table with his hands over his head?
You would think he would have given a better showing - hmm. Yes he could have forgotton he did it. :D

[David-M]

You really just don't understand much. Do you? Now you have the black boxes burning to a crisp from the heat generated by jet fuel, which is btw, essentially kerosene.

You, Bob and Kuch should make a butty movie.

A good title would be The Three Thimbles.

What? ...your reinforcing my argument. You are the one who has been saying that the recorders could not have melted to a crisp...and now you are saying they could have.

And yes, (Duh) jet fuel is highly refined kerosene. I think I learned that in 8th grade.

[bob]

So funny that kerosene is so benign. I figure it is “fuel oil” and we all know that is an ingredient in a very powerful explosive called a shit bomb.
So the magic black boxes should survive – at best guess 100 to 1000 times the heat of the surface of the sun. I bet the paint on them alone is so special that it would not have a problem.

You tell me how hot they had to make the metal to form the box and I bet the heat they were subjected to was many times that.

[Kuch]

Yes, yes, we’re all idiots. David, Bob, and I are all living in denial of what is obviously a mass conspiracy.

Tell us Rapier, what do you think REALLY happened? What has been covered up?

Just to clarify, I don’t care at all about your paranoid goose-stepping ideas. I actually think you’re an idiot. Your conjecture and innuendo only enforces the fact that a schizophrenic asshole is able to use the internet.

I just want to hear what you think really happened. Enthrall us with your wit.

[mbossman2]

Point of fact:
Enviromental specs of a flight data recorder:
ENVIRONMENTAL
Temperature: Operating: -55° to +70°C
Non-operating: -55° to +85°C
Altitude: Operating: -1000 to 55,000 ft
ENVIRONMENTAL cont’d
Vibration: Operating: DO-160C Para 8.5.2
Category C (random)
Penetration: ED-55: 500 lbs/10 ft/¼” probe
Static Crush: ED-55: 5,000 lbs
Fire Protection: 50,000 BTU/sq ft/hour for
60 minutes at 1110°C;
10 hours at 260°C
Impact: ED-55: 3400g, 6.5 ms,
half-sine shock wave
http://www.l-3ar.com/PDF_Files/MKT051_FA2100FDR.pdf

while certainly strong, they are not indestructible:

Static Crush: ED-55: 5,000 lbs

5000 pounds of pressure could flatten it like a tin can. How much debris was removed from ground zero? I know that 181,400 tons of steel was sold off as scrap. slightly more than 5000 pounds.

Fire Protection: 50,000 BTU/sq ft/hour for
60 minutes at 1110°C;
10 hours at 260°C

10 hours at 260°C is not that much nor for that long. it took quite a while to find the FDRs that they did locate.

Between the 2 (weight and heat), it is quite conceivable that the FDRs were mangled beyond all recognition.

[Rapier]

THE WORLD TRADE CENTER JET FUEL HOAX

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/12/277394.shtml


Here are statements from three eye-witnesses that provide evidence that the heating due to the jet fuel was indeed minimal.

Donovan Cowan was in an open elevator at the 78th floor sky-lobby (one of the impact floors of the South Tower) when the first aircraft hit. He has been quoted as saying: "We went into the elevator. As soon as I hit the button, that's when there was a big boom. We both got knocked down. I remember feeling this intense heat. The doors were still open. The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped."

Stanley Praimnath was on the 81st floor of the South Tower: "The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway."

http://www.stanleypraimnath.com/1.htm

Ling Young was in her 78th floor office: "Only in my area were people alive, and the people alive were from my office. I figured that out later because I sat around in there for 10 or 15 minutes. That's how I got so burned."

Neither Stanley Praimnath nor Donovan Cowan nor Ling Young were cooked by the jet fuel fire. All three survived.

Summarizing:

We have assumed that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat.

Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor more than 257? C (495? F).

Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.

It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600? C (1,100? F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500? C that we constantly read about in our lying media.

"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900? C (1,500-1,700? F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600? C (1,100? F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."

http://www.flcv.com/wtc2surv.html

[Kuch]

The testimony of 3 people (all of whom were certainly in shock) doesn’t mean anything. It’s like saying the Japanese didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor because three people on the ground didn’t actually see the red circles on the planes.

The experiment by British Steel that you quoted is laughable. They used a “simulated” 8 story building? Proving what? Color me impressed.

If you can find any organization in the world that has actually built a replica of the WTC towers and flown commercial jets into them, then you’ll have an organization with actual data relevant to this discussion. Until then, all you have is a bunch of conjecture conjured up by nutcases.

[bob]

I have a metal charcoal starter that will start the coals with just one sheet of newspaper.
It traps the heat and the air is fed from the bottom. Reminds me of the WTC
Once it gets that hot aluminum and everything else will burn fueling the fire

[Rapier]

The testimony of 3 people (all of whom were certainly in shock) doesn’t mean anything. It’s like saying the Japanese didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor because three people on the ground didn’t actually see the red circles on the planes.

The experiment by British Steel that you quoted is laughable. They used a “simulated” 8 story building? Proving what? Color me impressed.

If you can find any organization in the world that has actually built a replica of the WTC towers and flown commercial jets into them, then you’ll have an organization with actual data relevant to this discussion. Until then, all you have is a bunch of conjecture conjured up by nutcases.

[21] The fire theory is rendered even more unlikely if the first two characteristics are taken together. For fire to have induced a collapse that began suddenly and was entirely symmetrical, so that it went straight down, the fires would have needed to cause all the crucial parts of the building to fail simultaneously, even though the fires were not spread evenly throughout the buildings. As Jim Hoffman has written: “All 287 columns would have to have weakened to the point of collapse at the same instant” (“The Twin Towers Demolition,” 9-11 Research.wtc7.net, n.d., http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/towers/slides.html).



[22] That statement is probably a slight exaggeration, as the videos, according to most students, seem to suggest that the collapses took somewhere between 11 and 16 seconds. But this would still be close to free-fall speed through the air.



[23] As physicist Steven Jones puts it, “the Towers fall very rapidly to the ground, with the upper part falling nearly as rapidly as ejected debris which provide free-fall references . . . . Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum---one of the foundational Laws of Physics? That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors---and intact steel support columns---the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. . . . [B]ut this is not the case. . . . How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings? The contradiction is ignored by FEMA, NIST and 9/11 Commission reports where conservation of momentum and the fall times were not analyzed” (Jones, 2006; until then available at http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html).

-

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html#_edn1

Fire and structural damage don't result in neat piles.

[Rapier]

Yes, yes, we’re all idiots. David, Bob, and I are all living in denial of what is obviously a mass conspiracy.

Tell us Rapier, what do you think REALLY happened? What has been covered up?

Just to clarify, I don’t care at all about your paranoid goose-stepping ideas. I actually think you’re an idiot. Your conjecture and innuendo only enforces the fact that a schizophrenic asshole is able to use the internet.

I just want to hear what you think really happened. Enthrall us with your wit.

That so many people believe what they saw were not three controlled demolitions is precisely why this country is being led around by the nose by the media.

It's pathetic and scary that a person can possibly believe that fire can bring down a steel structure in a mirror image of a controlled demolition.

[21] The fire theory is rendered even more unlikely if the first two characteristics are taken together. For fire to have induced a collapse that began suddenly and was entirely symmetrical, so that it went straight down, the fires would have needed to cause all the crucial parts of the building to fail simultaneously, even though the fires were not spread evenly throughout the buildings. As Jim Hoffman has written: “All 287 columns would have to have weakened to the point of collapse at the same instant” (“The Twin Towers Demolition,” 9-11 Research.wtc7.net, n.d., http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/towers/slides.html).

[David-M]

Whew....so it was a controlled demolition?:rolleyes: Nobody ever saw the demolition people placing explosives all over the inside of the building for weeks on end nor anyone saw them or heard them cutting critical beams inside the building. That's one hell of a conspiracy that all these people were involved in and not one person ever talked or ever saw them...all the security night guards must have been in on it as well. Maybe all the security guards and other people who worked at night were NSA agents who allowed the demolitions crews to work in secrecy? :rolleyes:

Ever wonder what would happen if you stacked 20 or so cement pavers one above the other supported by thin metal and then dropped a paver at the top on top of the other? As each paver hits the next you have two times the weight, three times the weight, four times the weight and so on until you have the weight of dozens of floors collapsing the next floor. And you know what?...the fire that weakened the supporting columns wasn't even at the top floor! The weight was already there! All it took was the heating of a few floors to create this effect. Where do you think gravity is pulling these floors other than straight down? Are the floors supposed to shoot out the sides like Frisbees? Is the building supposed to fall over like an unsupported telephone pole? Can't you possibly imagine the domino effect?....or is this beyond your comprehension? It does not take an Einstein to comprehend this.

[Kuch]

Don’t bother David.

Merely repeating someone else’s words in bold text suffices for an argument for some people.

But yeah, we’re the ones who are delusional.

[David-M]

Your right Kuch. Trying to reason with the irrational is like pissing into the wind.

[Rapier]

Your right Kuch. Trying to reason with the irrational is like pissing into the wind.


You two are just plain stupid. Fire is erratic. It burns to the fuel.
Steel isn't freaking fuel for fire so the freaking fire would always be burning away from the the steel.
Fire alone could never collapse a 30 year old steel structured building. Let alone a second. Nor a freaking third.

How can you be so freaking stupid?

[Rapier]

Whew....so it was a controlled demolition?:rolleyes: Nobody ever saw the demolition people placing explosives all over the inside of the building for weeks on end nor anyone saw them or heard them cutting critical beams inside the building. That's one hell of a conspiracy that all these people were involved in and not one person ever talked or ever saw them...all the security night guards must have been in on it as well. Maybe all the security guards and other people who worked at night were NSA agents who allowed the demolitions crews to work in secrecy? :rolleyes:

Ever wonder what would happen if you stacked 20 or so cement pavers one above the other supported by thin metal and then dropped a paver at the top on top of the other? As each paver hits the next you have two times the weight, three times the weight, four times the weight and so on until you have the weight of dozens of floors collapsing the next floor. And you know what?...the fire that weakened the supporting columns wasn't even at the top floor! The weight was already there! All it took was the heating of a few floors to create this effect. Where do you think gravity is pulling these floors other than straight down? Are the floors supposed to shoot out the sides like Frisbees? Is the building supposed to fall over like an unsupported telephone pole? Can't you possibly imagine the domino effect?....or is this beyond your comprehension? It does not take an Einstein to comprehend this.

Three different buildings, with three different forces attacking them, with an identical consequence for each.

All with no structural warning. Natural events always have warnings.

I could be convinced, maybe, if it happened once.

[bob]

Its so easy that a sand-nigger could figure it out.

[Rapier]

Say what????

[David-M]

Three different buildings, with three different forces attacking them, with an identical consequence for each.

All with no structural warning. Natural events always have warnings.

I could be convinced, maybe, if it happened once.

So Rapier...your the conspiracy expert. How did this secret government task force take down the three buildings? This should be interesting. Don't give me links to crackpot conspiracy websites with a thousand pages to read. I want to hear it from you in your words.

I think that in a couple paragraphs you can tell us how the government took down those buildings.

[David-M]

Its so easy that a sand-nigger could figure it out.

My guess is they thought all they would do is kill some people in the building. Not take the entire building down....that was a huge bonus for them. They are not that smart of a culture nor technically advanced enough to figure these things out. You don't see any technological advancements coming from any Muslim nations. Their beliefs stifle science and technological advances.

BTW, Morocco was the only Muslim country to outwardly show sympathy to the US for this tragedy. All the other Muslim dominated countries were pretty much silent. Most silently gleeful.

[Rapier]

So Rapier...your the conspiracy expert. How did this secret government task force take down the three buildings? This should be interesting. Don't give me links to crackpot conspiracy websites with a thousand pages to read. I want to hear it from you in your words.

I think that in a couple paragraphs you can tell us how the government took down those buildings.

You're the crackpot. Dumb and shitfed by the media. Only morons believe three buildings collapsed in a manner that is a picture image of controlled demolition but were not controlled demolitions.

How about that anthrax "suspect" dying? US laboratory sourced anthrax and 7 years later nobody can figure out who dunnit. Can you say inventory?

[bob]

You're the crackpot. Dumb and shitfed by the media. Only morons believe three buildings collapsed in a manner that is a picture image of controlled demolition but were not controlled demolitions.

How about that anthrax "suspect" dying? US laboratory sourced anthrax and 7 years later nobody can figure out who dunnit. Can you say inventory?

Rapier Did you know bin ladin has a degree in civil engineering??
Do you (sub sand nigger)???

[Rapier]

Rapier Did you know bin ladin has a degree in civil engineering??
Do you (sub sand nigger)???


Bin Laden was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim.[22] From 1968 to 1976 he attended the "élite" secular Al-Thager Model School.[23] Bin Laden studied economics and business administration[24] at King Abdulaziz University. Some reports suggest bin Laden earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979,[25] or a degree in public administration in 1981.[26] Other sources describe him as having left university during his third year,[27] never completing a college degree, though "hard working."[28] At university, bin Laden's main interest was religion, where he was involved in both "interpreting the Quran and jihad" and charitable work.[29]

In 1974, at the age of seventeen, bin Laden married his first wife Najwa Ghanem at Latakia.[30][31] Laden is reported to have married four other women[32] and divorced two, Ali bin Laden and Abdullah. He has fathered anywhere from 12 to 24 children.[33]



This guy obviously needs to get laid. Yet we can't find a 6' 4" to 6' 6" devout horny Sunni Muslim surrounded by women and children.

Why is that?

[David-M]

You're the crackpot. Dumb and shitfed by the media. Only morons believe three buildings collapsed in a manner that is a picture image of controlled demolition but were not controlled demolitions.

How about that anthrax "suspect" dying? US laboratory sourced anthrax and 7 years later nobody can figure out who dunnit. Can you say inventory?

So instead of stating your theory of how the buildings collapsed you attack me personally. Isn't that sort of a chicken shit way of sidestepping the question? If you know how it happened then lets hear your theory of how the government took down the buildings?

You then go on to a another subject altogether as a distraction from the original question.

Dodge and distract...you sound like a politician when asked questions by the press that he does not want to have to answer.

[Rapier]

So instead of stating your theory of how the buildings collapsed you attack me personally. Isn't that sort of a chicken shit way of sidestepping the question? If you know how it happened then lets hear your theory of how the government took down the buildings?

You then go on to a another subject altogether as a distraction from the original question.

Dodge and distract...you sound like a politician when asked questions by the press that he does not want to have to answer.

Bush's cousin was in charge of WTC security. I don't see the press investigating his activities the weeks prior to 9/11. I don't see the press investigating the whereabouts and activities of the 5 or so demolition companies capable of setting up 9/11 controlled demolitions.

Remember fire burns towards the fuel. I you have a stack of papers next to a steel beam the papers would burn and seek more fuel. The new fuel for the fire would be AWAY from the steel beam giving the beam time to cool down.

You don't even try to understand that any heat a steel beam receives is shared with any and all steel beams it is connected to throughout the entire structure.

Read and believe it. That is why steel beams never get hot enough to fail and cause a collapse. Steel is not fuel for fire
so fire burns away from steel or towards it.


Acetylene torches and furnaces are used heat steel to soften it.

[bob]

I and many others knew the buildings were coming down once the planes hit
It will take a big torch and months to cut the concreate covered beams.

[Rapier]

I and many others knew the buildings were coming down once the planes hit
It will take a big torch and months to cut the concreate covered beams.


Yeah sure.

[David-M]

Bush's cousin was in charge of WTC security. I don't see the press investigating his activities the weeks prior to 9/11. I don't see the press investigating the whereabouts and activities of the 5 or so demolition companies capable of setting up 9/11 controlled demolitions.

Remember fire burns towards the fuel. I you have a stack of papers next to a steel beam the papers would burn and seek more fuel. The new fuel for the fire would be AWAY from the steel beam giving the beam time to cool down.

You don't even try to understand that any heat a steel beam receives is shared with any and all steel beams it is connected to throughout the entire structure.

Read and believe it. That is why steel beams never get hot enough to fail and cause a collapse. Steel is not fuel for fire
so fire burns away from steel or towards it.


Acetylene torches and furnaces are used heat steel to soften it.

This is so bizarre. Your knowledge of how fire works is even wacked. I went through the Naval firefighting school. What your saying simply is not true. Fire is caused by fuel, heat and oxygen. It does not go away from anything in particular....it just burns where you have those three elements. Your assumptions about the conductance of heat of steel is also wacked. If steel conducted heat as well as you say then welding would be impossible. The manufacture of steel would be impossible as well.

Do you understand that steel weakens as it gets hotter?? It does not have to be red hot before it loses any of its strength. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[bob]

Rapier, is your goal to promote stupidy?

[Rapier]

This is so bizarre. Your knowledge of how fire works is even wacked. I went through the Naval firefighting school. What your saying simply is not true. Fire is caused by fuel, heat and oxygen. It does not go away from anything in particular....it just burns where you have those three elements. Your assumptions about the conductance of heat of steel is also wacked. If steel conducted heat as well as you say then welding would be impossible. The manufacture of steel would be impossible as well.

Do you understand that steel weakens as it gets hotter?? It does not have to be red hot before it loses any of its strength. Why is this so difficult to understand?

You and Bob need a timeout. 12 years to go through grades 1 thru 12 again would prolly be about right.

[David-M]

You and Bob need a timeout. 12 years to go through grades 1 thru 12 again would prolly be about right.

Hah...just a personal insult. No answer. :D

[Rapier]

Hah...just a personal insult. No answer. :D

"I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"
MP

[Rapier]

Rapier, is your goal to promote stupidy?

That your nickname in school? stupidy?

[bob]

prolly......................Probably not.

[David-M]

"I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"
MP
Well, that was intelligent.

[bob]

That was a Frenchman in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"
Well I am the little white rabbit.

Clearly you don't know your sparrows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparrow

[Rapier]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xhYk9PEmXA

[bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xhYk9PEmXA


That explains your theory.:cool:

[Rapier]

Actually that only the three Nimrods say they didn't observe three controlled demolitions says it all.

One even said he knew the buildings were going to collapse soon as they were hit by planes. Wonder if he knew WTC 7 was gonna collapse because it wasn't hit by a plane.

[David-M]

It might be time to stop poking sticks in the conspirators cage. It only makes them angrier at the world and we don't need another Timothy McVeigh or Unibomber.

[bob]

It might be time to stop poking sticks in the conspirators cage. It only makes them angrier at the world and we don't need another Timothy McVeigh or Unibomber.

I doubt he would do better than the shoe bomber.:D

[Rapier]

The heat, the heat, much more inane than the plane, the plane.



Pop Mech- "As the fires blazed and the temperatures rose within the buildings, NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) believes, the remaining core columns (those not severed by the planes during impact) softened and buckled, transferring most of the load to the building's outer structural columns. The floors . . . began to sag from the heat, pulling those columns inward and adding to the burden on the outer columns."

Debunking: For anyone who as actually watched the WTC video's carefully, you will note that the south tower was struck near the corner, almost insuring it sustained NO damage to the central core columns.

It also had by far the largest fireball produced, indicating a substantially larger portion of the fuel was burned in the initial impact and for the most part outside the building. Oddly, it was the south tower which fell first after burning for only 55 minutes, and at a point when the fires had greatly diminished.

In addition, as given by Kevin Ryan who was responsible for the thermal testing of the WTC Steel when it was certified, the samples tested for the WTC were certified to withstand a temperature of 2,000 deg for 6 hours without failing their rated load characteristics. And that is without insulation.

The WTC beams were insulated. Jet fuel burns at only 1200-1300 degrees with an ideal oxygen mixture, something not indicated by the black smoke that issued from the fires.

There was nothing contained within the buildings that could have raised this figure, and those that use the example of ancient furnaces that tempered steel as a argument, again, do not understand the principles involved.






But more important than the issue of the likelihood of the steel failure, is the FACT (not conjecture) that ALL THREE buildings collapsed into their own footprint at FREEFALL SPEED (i.e. the unimpeded acceleration of gravity).

That means, drop a rock off the roof, at the moment of collapse, and the roof would hit the ground at the same time as the rock. This implies, (regardless of what happened at the fire zone) that the when the top section of the building began to fall it managed to plow through 70-80 odd floors of pristine and undamaged steel -- literally thousands of huge beams and concrete pads-- with absolutely NO RESISTANCE (i.e.. slowing of the rate of fall) WHATSOEVER.

And this sir, is physically impossible and verging on the absurd, and I (a physicist), and anyone with a shred of knowledge of engineering, physics, or just plain common sense can understand that.

And there is a $1,000,000.00 cash challenge (to date unanswered) to anyone that can suggest a legitimate solution to this nagging little problem.

And lastly, if the official pancake theory is correct, it lends no explanation whatsoever for why the central core of 47 HUGE beams, all connected together at numerous levels, would not be left standing like a spire as the floor connectors failed and the floors pancaked symmetrically around them.

The less resistance to this collapse scenario exhibited by the building's design, the more likely the central core would remain virtually untouched. It is a paradox.


http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?ChannelID=112

[mbossman2]

the quote you reference attributes Popular Mechanics, yet, when you read thru the article that they wrote, the quote does not appear in their article:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1

but why not go to the source when it might contradict your preconceived notions or prejudices.

[Rapier]

the quote you reference attributes Popular Mechanics, yet, when you read thru the article that they wrote, the quote does not appear in their article:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1

but why not go to the source when it might contradict your preconceived notions or prejudices.

Well duh. I'm certain the quote was from the FIRST explanation by Popular Mechanics of why the three WTC buildings collapsed.

I searched the web and PM's site but was unable to find the ORIGINAL article which was published in early October or late September of 2001.

[bob]

Rapier - You need to take your mood stabilizers.

[Rapier]

Insider Trading
Pre-9/11 Put Options on Companies Hurt by Attack Indicates Foreknowledge

Financial transactions in the days before the attack suggest that certain individuals used foreknowledge of the attack to reap huge profits. 1 The evidence of insider trading includes:

* Huge surges in purchases of put options on stocks of the two airlines used in the attack -- United Airlines and American Airlines
* Surges in purchases of put options on stocks of reinsurance companies expected to pay out billions to cover losses from the attack -- Munich Re and the AXA Group
* Surges in purchases of put options on stocks of financial services companies hurt by the attack -- Merrill Lynch & Co., and Morgan Stanley and Bank of America
* Huge surge in purchases of call options of stock of a weapons manufacturer expected to gain from the attack -- Raytheon
* Huge surges in purchases of 5-Year US Treasury Notes

In each case, the anomalous purchases translated into large profits as soon as the stock market opened a week after the attack: put options were used on stocks that would be hurt by the attack, and call options were used on stocks that would benefit.

Put and call options are contracts that allow their holders to sell and buy assets, respectively, at specified prices by a certain date. Put options allow their holders to profit from declines in stock values because they allow stocks to be bought at market price and sold for the higher option price. The ratio of the volume of put option contracts to call option contracts is called the put/call ratio. The ratio is usually less than one, with a value of around 0.8 considered normal. 2
Losers

American Airlines and United Airlines, and several insurance companies and banks posted huge loses in stock values when the markets opened on September 17. Put options -- financial instruments which allow investors to profit from the decline in value of stocks -- were purchased on the stocks of these companies in great volume in the week before the attack.
United Airlines and American Airlines

Two of the corporations most damaged by the attack were American Airlines (AMR), the operator of Flight 11 and Flight 77, and United Airlines (UAL), the operator of Flight 175 and Flight 93. According to CBS News, in the week before the attack, the put/call ratio for American Airlines was four. 3 The put/call ratio for United Airlines was 25 times above normal on September 6. 4

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/stockputs.html

[Rapier]

Witnesses.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4196580169348087802

[bob]

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/stockputs.html



And the footnote includes
3. "Mechanics of Possible Bin Laden Insider Trading Scam,"

[Rapier]

Groundswell approach

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

Click one of the following boxes to select a section

520+ Engineers and Architects
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html
120+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html
270+ Professors Question 9/11
http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html

[David-M]

In my overall experience with people, the ones who subscribe to the conspiracy theories seem the least intelligent and the least educated. I guess it is because they are incapable of seeing all the variables or don't have a mental grasp on probabilities? Perhaps they just lack a scientific mind or cannot think sophisticated thoughts? Perhaps it is a combination of these things and more?

[Rapier]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/19/archive/main321907.shtml

September 11, 2001
October 11, 2001
November 11, 2001
December 11, 2001
December 19, 2001

Hey genius. Or should I say rear end wipe. How do you explain over 3 months of under ground fires and molten steel?



WTC Fires All But Defeated

NEW YORK, Dec. 19, 2001




"There might be some pockets still burning, but we consider the fire to be out."
Fire Battalion Chief Brian Dixon


(CBS) Firefighters have extinguished almost all but the last remnants of underground fires that have burned at the World Trade Center site for more than three months since the Sept. 11 terrorist attack.

"Just in the last week the fires have actually been put out," Gov. George Pataki told a group of about 50 upstate elected officials during a tour of the disaster site on Wednesday.

Battalion Chief Brian Dixon confirmed later Wednesday that the main bodies of fire have been extinguished, although he said small pockets or "hot spots" are still being discovered.

"The FDNY has made great progress in putting out the fires at the World Trade Center," Dixon said.

But Dixon noted a firetruck remains on standby at the site, and the department considers it an active fire scene.

The fires that began with the Sept. 11 attacks had been strong enough that firetrucks had to spray a nearly constant jet of water on them. At times, the flames slowed the work of clearing the site.

"You couldn't even begin to imagine how much water was pumped in there," said Tom Manley of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, the largest fire department union. "It was like you were creating a giant lake."

The fires were fueled by almost everything inside the towers, from documents to office furniture. As demolition and rescue crews toiled to clear the debris, air pockets would open up, allowing fresh oxygen to cause hot spots to flare up.

Manley said at any given time there were at least 10 firefighters working the hose lines — and more when needed.

"You always had at least 10, but if you had numerous fires going you brought in more," he said.

Pataki also said Wednesday that clearing the site is expected to take six to nine more months, with work focused on the seven floors of compacted rubble underground. Workers at the site continue to search closely for human remains.

For the 75 firefighters working at the site daily, knocking the fires down makes the job of finding remains a bit easier — but it does little to help them emotionally.

"It'll be a lot less of a hindrance now since the smoke's not there," Manley said. "But the emotional state stays exactly the same. Just being down there is emotional."

Peter Gorman, president of the Uniformed Fire Officers Association, said he was gratified that the fires have been beaten back. "But the work is not getting any easier."

Smoke from the 16-acre site where the buildings once stood has at times choked the air in lower Manhattan's financial district with the smell of burning rubber, plastic and steel.

"When you smell that smoke it was a constant, grim reminder and now that the smell has subsided I guess it'll be easier for those who have gone back to work down there," said Gorman, whose union represents the department's lieutenants, captains and chiefs.

About 50 members of the New York State Association of Counties heard the update about the fires and other details of the trade center ste when they toured ground zero Wednesday with Pataki.

"I think it's important you all came down here because we're one state," the governor said. "Whenever there has been a problem in this state we've all pulled together and it's just great that you've all come to pull together and understand what we have to do here."

The elected officials looked around the site for nearly a half-hour, looking somber with ashen expressions.

"You get the feeling right up your back when you see how somber it is and the emotion that is here," said Dutchess County Executive William Steinhaus.

[bob]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/19/archive/main321907.shtml

September 11, 2001
October 11, 2001
November 11, 2001
December 11, 2001
December 19, 2001

Hey genius. Or should I say rear end wipe. How do you explain over 3 months of under ground fires and molten steel?

I explain it as two sets of lost black boxs :D

[Kuch]

This is like trying to explain a blue sky to a person who refuses to open their eyes.

Of course, now the claim will be that we’re the ones who need to open our eyes.

I also predict a rather moronic insult followed by an attack on our intelligence.

[Rapier]

This is like trying to explain a blue sky to a person who refuses to open their eyes.

Of course, now the claim will be that we’re the ones who need to open our eyes.

I also predict a rather moronic insult followed by an attack on our intelligence.


Hey geniuses. Or should I say rear end wipes. How do you explain over 3 months of under ground fires and molten steel?

[bob]

Rapier, are you asking us to wipe your ass because you can't do it yourself?

[Kuch]

He’s a child bob. You can’t reason with him. His only way to argue is to post a link to another site where someone else has already told him what to think. (And of course, if the website has the term conspiracy in its web address, it has to be legit). If you confront him with an actual question he doesn’t know or that can’t be answered by his rhetoric, he’ll respond with an insult.

Rapier – Do those sites actually explain how to make your tin foil hats? Or does your mom make them for you?

[Rapier]

He’s a child bob. You can’t reason with him. His only way to argue is to post a link to another site where someone else has already told him what to think. (And of course, if the website has the term conspiracy in its web address, it has to be legit). If you confront him with an actual question he doesn’t know or that can’t be answered by his rhetoric, he’ll respond with an insult.

Rapier – Do those sites actually explain how to make your tin foil hats? Or does your mom make them for you?

Answer the questions.

How do you explain over 3 months of debris fires?

How do you explain the molten steel?

[Rapier]

He’s a child bob. You can’t reason with him. His only way to argue is to post a link to another site where someone else has already told him what to think. (And of course, if the website has the term conspiracy in its web address, it has to be legit). If you confront him with an actual question he doesn’t know or that can’t be answered by his rhetoric, he’ll respond with an insult.

Rapier – Do those sites actually explain how to make your tin foil hats? Or does your mom make them for you?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/19/archive/main321907.shtml

CBS News is a conspiracy site?

My mom? You want to explain your speaking of my mother?

[Rapier]

The official explanation faction says:

There is little debris because of the plane speed and impact.

The nose of the plane, because it was made of carbon fiber, made it through the Pentagon building.

If there was SO little debris because of the plane speed and contact how did so much of the plane get through to extend into A-E Drive?

If plane got through to extend into A-E Drive relatively intact why was there such "little" debris?

If the nose made a hole into and through the Pentagon why didn't the greater "solid" mass of the engines make their own holes?

Two completely opposite circumstances to explain the physical results.

[bob]

You can spout dirt on the towers but you really think the Pentagon was in on it too?

How about the plane destioned for the white house. Why did the white house not explode even though the plane never hit - why was no bombs found? The white house staff was in it to disarm the bombs too?

What a borderline mind. As was said in Get Smart AMAZING!!!

[Rapier]

You can spout dirt on the towers but you really think the Pentagon was in on it too?

How about the plane destioned for the white house. Why did the white house not explode even though the plane never hit - why was no bombs found? The white house staff was in it to disarm the bombs too?

What a borderline mind. As was said in Get Smart AMAZING!!!

It's called collateral damage.

How would an insider convince other insiders to participate if the Pentagon attack plan didn't keep collateral damage to an absolute minimum? There was no luck involved.

This aspect of Pentagon-9/11, fortifying a section of the Pentagon then attacking it, mirrors buying the WTC and insuring it then attacking it. In both attacks collateral damage to the "owners" was minimized and profit realized.


As for the "White House" airliner, again, do you attack your
own people, your "family?" Or does that part of the intentionally plan fail?

[Rapier]

Putting four semi English literate terrorists in a 757 cockpit would be like 3 Stooges episode. You have them doing this and that without any response from the flight crews.

What happened to the pilots and the copilots?

I'm sure there was some sort of panic type button/plan of action in the cockpit that would alert traffic controllers of 4 hijackings.

Okay 3 hijackings.

Okay 2 hijackings.

Okay 1 hijacking.


But nothing?

Not a single signal of any kind?



That's like the 4 WTC black boxes.

Not 4 WTC black boxes were recovered.

Not 3 WTC black boxes were recovered.

Not 2 WTC black boxes were recovered.

Not 1 WTC black box was recovered.

Nada WTC black boxes were recovered.

Not 4 hijacked airliners were approached by scrambled jets. Not 3 hijacked airliners were approached by scrambled jets.
Not 2 hijacked airliners were approached by scrambled jets.
Not 1 hijacked airliners were approached by scrambled jets.

Zero hijacked airliners were approached by scramble jets.


Not 1 steel structured building collapsed.

Not 2 steel structured buildings collapsed.

Yes 3 steel structured buildings collapsed.


The preponderance of billion to one coincidences burgeon toward the realm of millions of yet to be calculated prime numbers.


I'm sure there is a statistician amongst us or from the web who could or already has crunched the likelihood of a 9/11
and its anomalies.




Quote:
Crucially, on 9/11, not one of the eight commercial pilots and copilots sent the standard signal alerting FAA authorities that a hijacking was in progress.12 Sending this signal, or “squawking,” as it is called, takes only a few seconds, and is done by activating a cockpit device known as an ELT (emergency locator transmitter). A pilot simply keys-in a four-digit code and the message “I have been hijacked” flashes on the screen at ground control. The fact that none of the pilots or copilots transmitted this standard SOS on 9/11 was suspicious, the first indication to Vialls that the planes were being flown by remote means. Vialls concluded that once the evildoers had commandeered the transponders the pilots lost the ability to transmit. Additional evidence turned up in a video of the last seconds of Flight 175. According to Vialls, the footage is anomalous because it shows the plane executing a maneuver during its final approach that exceeds the normal software limitations of a 767. Boeing jets are designed with liability concerns in mind, as well as passenger safety. Flight control software prevents a pilot from making steep turns that pull substantial “g” forces. Such turns run the risk of injuring passengers, especially the aged and infirm, which could result in costly lawsuits. Since a pilot cannot normally make such a maneuver, this was powerful evidence that the plane was under remote control.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=6075

[David-M]

Do you really think you are going to change anyone's mind?

Copying and pasting all this shit borderlines on paranoid delusion.

Does your health care cover psychiatric treatment?

Get some help dude....seriously. You really don't want to end up in an orange jumpsuit for doing something you will regret for the rest of your life. Just trying to help...no offense intended.

[Rapier]

Do you really think you are going to change anyone's mind?

Copying and pasting all this shit borderlines on paranoid delusion.

Does your health care cover psychiatric treatment?

Get some help dude....seriously. You really don't want to end up in an orange jumpsuit for doing something you will regret for the rest of your life. Just trying to help...no offense intended.

Your type is what's wrong with America. You let yourself get led around by what the Media says is important, by writing about it or ignoring the actual important issues.

We are essentially at war with the rest of the world because of neoconservative "control" of our foreign policy and you act as if they and those whose money supports them don't exist. You act as if there are no "bad guys" who have pushed for war in the ME for 40 years.


You see 3 steel supported structures fall down in one day from 3 different points of "impact" and moderate decentralized fires and believe that's possible? Along with a multitude of anomalies and events unique and hard to believe by themselves, let alone twice, three times, four times, eight times and No skepticism at all? You are just stupid.

[Jester]

You know if you did a quarter as much ACTUAL research on disproving the conspiracy as you do on proving it you would figure out very quickly that it is YOUR type that is wrong with America. The thing about consiracyies is that they have to be PROVEN the great thing about fact is that it doesn't. All this conspiracy shit is doing is stiring up emotions of lost loved ones. This conspiracy shit is the lowest form of stupid. Look at the math, look at the footage, look at the expert testimony. Stop letting the internet do your thinking for you. You are so over defensive about this crap that its funny. You don't see us getting nast and name cally when you bring up your whacky "facts".

Molten Steal and Burning debris 3 months later is easy to explain. it is called fucking JET FUEL. Shit burns for ever and it could continue burning as it burns through the LAYERS of debris. Good Job Genius.

[mbossman2]

the 7500 squawk assumes that the hijacker has no flight abilities or training thus is dependent upon keeping the flight crew alive for his own survival. As the hijackers did have sufficient flight training, the survival of the flight crew was not a concern, assaulting the flight deck and killing or disabling the flight crew would have taken only seconds, far faster than the flight crew could have reacted, especially if the assault was planned and the attackers trained.

[Jester]

Zero hijacked airliners were approached by scramble jets.

This is completley false. The Ohio Air National Guard deployed two f-16's to the plane that crashed in Penn. They were aproached but the thought of shooting down all of those civilians was a cross no person wanted to bare. The planes were called back before given the order to fire. I know this for a fact because I was deployed with a Lt Colonel that was at that base and was privy to such information.

Yes 3 steel structured buildings collapsed.

Because 2 of them had planes flown into them carrying full loads of jet fuel to get across the ocean. Those two buildings then fell on the third building while ON FIRE WITH JET FUEL. No shit 3 buildings went down.

The thing that you are not getting here is that it was a planned Terrorist attack. If you have ever seen a road side bombing in Iraq or Afghanistan you know these guys go for maximum colateral damage. They had most of the details down and the after math played out as random as the attack appeared.

[Rapier]

the 7500 squawk assumes that the hijacker has no flight abilities or training thus is dependent upon keeping the flight crew alive for his own survival. As the hijackers did have sufficient flight training, the survival of the flight crew was not a concern, assaulting the flight deck and killing or disabling the flight crew would have taken only seconds, far faster than the flight crew could have reacted, especially if the assault was planned and the attackers trained.


Jester says:
Molten Steal and Burning debris 3 months later is easy to explain. it is called fucking JET FUEL. Shit burns for ever and it could continue burning as it burns through the LAYERS of debris. Good Job Genius.

Yo mbossman2. This is the type of moron you align yourself with? Someone who thinks the WTC was a kerosene heater and that the kerosene, oops jet fuel, didn't burn away/explode seconds/minutes after the crashes? And that the "jet fuel" that didn't burn away, soaked into the debris of the collapsed tower an hour later and burned itself out 3 months later on or around December 19, 2001?

[Rapier]

This is completley false. The Ohio Air National Guard deployed two f-16's to the plane that crashed in Penn. They were aproached but the thought of shooting down all of those civilians was a cross no person wanted to bare. The planes were called back before given the order to fire. I know this for a fact because I was deployed with a Lt Colonel that was at that base and was privy to such information.



Because 2 of them had planes flown into them carrying full loads of jet fuel to get across the ocean.


Those two buildings then fell on the third building while ON FIRE WITH JET FUEL. No shit 3 buildings went down.

The thing that you are not getting here is that it was a planned Terrorist attack. If you have ever seen a road side bombing in Iraq or Afghanistan you know these guys go for maximum colateral damage. They had most of the details down and the after math played out as random as the attack appeared.


Sadly, you're not kidding. You really have that muddled distortion played out in your mind.

Oceans. Both towers falling on WTC 7.

American Airlines Flight 11 a Boeing 767-223ER from Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts, bound for Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California.


United Airlines Flight 93 from the gate in Newark International Airport, Newark, New Jersey bound for San Francisco International Airport, San Francisco, California.

United Airlines Flight 175 a Boeing 767-222 from Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts, bound for Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California.

American Airlines Flight 77 a Boeing 757-223 from Dulles International Airport about 30 miles west of Washington D.C. and the Pentagon, bound for Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California.

[Kuch]

Please let this thread fall by the wayside along with the rest of Rapier’s sanity.

He’s not going to be convinced by what anyone else says and I doubt he’s going to convince anyone either. Further discussion of this is futile.

[Rapier]

Please let this thread fall by the wayside along with the rest of Rapier’s sanity.

He’s not going to be convinced by what anyone else says and I doubt he’s going to convince anyone either. Further discussion of this is futile.

Hey Kuch why don't you enlighten us about the oceans, Those two buildings then fell on the third building while ON FIRE WITH JET FUEL. and the WTC kerosene heater effect your buddy Jester was babbling about?

[Jester]

Unlike you I actually did the scientific research along with reading the reports by experts that wrote up reports on the WTC and those that thought it was a conspiracy and then recanted. I digested the information on both sides and came to my own conclusions. If you would do the same you might actually learn something. Instead you waste your time on this unhealthy idiocy. When ever someone trys to refute your claims you go on the attack instead of try to defend your view. It is a classic symptom of being wrong. That and being a 20 something idealist. If you cant say anything intelligent or have some evidence with substance I wont respond.

[Rapier]

Unlike you I actually did the scientific research along with reading the reports by experts that wrote up reports on the WTC and those that thought it was a conspiracy and then recanted. I digested the information on both sides and came to my own conclusions. If you would do the same you might actually learn something. Instead you waste your time on this unhealthy idiocy. When ever someone trys to refute your claims you go on the attack instead of try to defend your view. It is a classic symptom of being wrong. That and being a 20 something idealist. If you cant say anything intelligent or have some evidence with substance I wont respond.

Hey Jester why don't you enlighten us about the oceans,
Quote:
Those two buildings then fell on the third building while ON FIRE WITH JET FUEL.
and the WTC kerosene heater effect you were babbling about?


Did you re-research your conclusions on the destinations of the 4 airliners yet, Mr. Dew Diligence?



That and being a 20 something idealist.

What does that mean?

[Jester]

will someone please explain to me what the hell the oceans have to do with this and why I need to explain them in order to explain combustible liquids.

As for being a 20 something idealist it is based on your immaturity and unwillingness to accept others ideas while attacking them to prove yourself.

[Kuch]

Jester - Leave this troll to his tinfoil hats.

[Rapier]

will someone please explain to me what the hell the oceans have to do with this and why I need to explain them in order to explain combustible liquids.

As for being a 20 something idealist it is based on your immaturity and unwillingness to accept others ideas while attacking them to prove yourself.


Because 2 of them had planes flown into them carrying full loads of jet fuel to get across the ocean. Those two buildings then fell on the third building while ON FIRE WITH JET FUEL. No shit 3 buildings went down.

The thing that you are not getting here is that it was a planned Terrorist attack. If you have ever seen a road side bombing in Iraq or Afghanistan you know these guys go for maximum colateral damage. They had most of the details down and the after math played out as random as the attack appeared.


Research? Who do you think you're kidding? You don't even remember or take the time to reread your own posts.

[Jester]

I am sorry I am human and there for fallable. The planes were going corss contry east coast to west cost. My bad. STILL A FUCK LOAD OF JET FUEL. Do you know the chemical components of JP-8? What its flash point is and how long it can burn given the right amount of heat and fuel? Cause I do. I don't feel the need to re-read my posts. I don't need to keep my story straight cause I'm not making it up as i go...:rolleyes:

[Rapier]

The rule of common sense says steel structured buildings don't collapse in threes.

The rule of common sense says black boxes within a city block of each other don't disappear in fours.

The rule of common sense says if damaged structures fall they fall toward the direction of the weakness in the structure.

The rule of common sense says if damaged structures fall and they don't fall toward the direction of the weakness in the structure the neoconservatives did it.

[Rapier]

The Great Conspiracy


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...13972926262623

http://www.jonhs.net/911/pandoras_black_box.htm

Swiiiing Battttter. Woooooshhh.

No comment on faulty Flight 77 black box analysis.

[bob]

Sadly, you're not kidding. You really have that muddled distortion played out in your mind.

Oceans. Both towers falling on WTC 7.

American Airlines Flight 11 a Boeing 767-223ER from Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts, bound for Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California.


United Airlines Flight 93 from the gate in Newark International Airport, Newark, New Jersey bound for San Francisco International Airport, San Francisco, California.

United Airlines Flight 175 a Boeing 767-222 from Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts, bound for Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California.

American Airlines Flight 77 a Boeing 757-223 from Dulles International Airport about 30 miles west of Washington D.C. and the Pentagon, bound for Los Angeles International Airport in Los Angeles, California.



One last time simple person
Boston to London UK is 3284 miles over ocean
Boston to Los Angeles is 2601 miles over land.
600 miles different
Now add the fact to London they follow the jetstream and while going to Los Angeles They must fight it.
It takes more fuckin Jet fuel to fly to LA.
Now shut your stuipd mouth.

[Rapier]

One last time simple person
Boston to London UK is 3284 miles over ocean
Boston to Los Angeles is 2601 miles over land.
600 miles different
Now add the fact to London they follow the jetstream and while going to Los Angeles They must fight it.
It takes more fuckin Jet fuel to fly to LA.
Now shut your stuipd mouth.



Jester said out of the blue

Because 2 of them had planes flown into them carrying full loads of jet fuel to get across the ocean.

How did the ocean get into it?

And you're explaining its relevance? Scary. :confused:

[Jester]

You seem to have missed the post where I admitted I was mistaken about he planes destinations. It has been a while since I have gone toe to toe with the conspiracy cooks. You are actually mild and easily proven incorrect in your assumptions compared to others that I have spared with. You will have to forgive me. My mental faculties are not what they were before I went into the military. Don't get me wrong there are some very smart people in our fine services, but in a civil engineering squadron being intelligent around a back hoe operator is like wasting gas driving a block when you could have just as easily have walked.

[Kuch]

Jester - You weren't a dirt boy, were you?

[bob]

While almost impossible I hope you can see I attack all issues with vigor. If I am against you at least you know you are getting a fair battle.
Now this jerk is what his name implies - a small sword, esp. of the 18th century, having a narrow blade and used for thrusting.
In other words an angry inch :D

[Jester]

Jester - You weren't a dirt boy, were you?

HELL NO. I was a 3E5X1 Engineering Assistant. AKA EA, Site D. We were the smart CE guys. We make the maps, survey the land, draw the buildings, layout the buildings and utilities, make sure tent city is square (this is an impossible task with squadrons being required to set up thier own tents).

[Kuch]

I have a dirt boy sitting behind me up at the MSG. I told him you said EA were the smart guys in CE. He laughed, "Probably".

[Rapier]

You seem to have missed the post where I admitted I was mistaken about he planes destinations. It has been a while since I have gone toe to toe with the conspiracy cooks. You are actually mild and easily proven incorrect in your assumptions compared to others that I have spared with. You will have to forgive me. My mental faculties are not what they were before I went into the military. Don't get me wrong there are some very smart people in our fine services, but in a civil engineering squadron being intelligent around a back hoe operator is like wasting gas driving a block when you could have just as easily have walked.

GTFOOH You've always been stupid. That's why you were assigned your billet. Dumbass.

[Jester]

Again with the childish, immature, and personal attacks. If you cannot debate this (not that there is anything real to debate) in a semi civil manner then I will not feed your ignorance.

Your repeated personal attacks are just proof that you are a troll behind a keyboard. Go crawl back under your bridge and wait for the billy goats.

"When one resorts to personal attacks he is defending the only fact left to him...that he is wrong" :D