Discipline and punishment

[VF500]

Just got back from walking the dogs and the difference between discipline and punishment was rattling around in my head. Here's how Wikipedia defines discipline: In its most general sense, discipline refers to systematic instruction given to a disciple. This sense also preserves the origin of the word, which is Latin disciplina, "instruction."

On the other hand: Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted, disobedient or morally wrong behavior.

The two words have unfortunately become synonymous. Captain Blye was described as "a stern disciplinarian". No he wasn't. He was just a mean old bastard. If he had used systematic instruction instead of mean punishment, he wouldn't have gotten set adrift when the crew finally mutinied.

With dogs and kids, praise and rewards for correctly following instructions works better than any punishment.

[heyhey]

Just got back from walking the dogs and the difference between discipline and punishment was rattling around in my head. Here's how Wikipedia defines discipline: In its most general sense, discipline refers to systematic instruction given to a disciple. This sense also preserves the origin of the word, which is Latin disciplina, "instruction."

On the other hand: Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted, disobedient or morally wrong behavior.

The two words have unfortunately become synonymous. Captain Blye was described as "a stern disciplinarian". No he wasn't. He was just a mean old bastard. If he had used systematic instruction instead of mean punishment, he wouldn't have gotten set adrift when the crew finally mutinied.

With dogs and kids, praise and rewards for correctly following instructions works better than any punishment.


VF500 ..now how would you apply that to the justice system here in this country?

Do you think justice should be mere punishment or should it actually involve rehabilitation?

[David M]

heyhey, you left out the most obvious answer..(intentionally?)

Justice should be both punishment and rehabilitation. Funny sometimes how limited the liberal mind gets in order to advance an agenda.

The implication from the question was that it has to be one or the other..which is better? Rehabilitation or punishment? Oh no..we couldn't have both!

[heyhey]

heyhey, you left out the most obvious answer..(intentionally?)

Justice should be both punishment and rehabilitation. Funny sometimes how limited the liberal mind gets in order to advance an agenda.

The implication from the question was that it has to be one or the other..which is better? Rehabilitation or punishment? Oh no..we couldn't have both!

I'm suprised a millionaire such as yourself has such reading comprehension.

It's not all liberals you know It's "liberal haters" such as yourself that make everything black and white

Reread my question...

I never said anything about either or... I was simply implying our criminal justice system is focused on the former not the latter.

notice the words "mere" and "involve" look them up if you need to.

Do you think justice should be mere punishment or should it actually involve rehabilitation?
maybe all that Romanian influence is causing you to lose your basic English.

[VF500]

VF500 ..now how would you apply that to the justice system here in this country?

Do you think justice should be mere punishment or should it actually involve rehabilitation?
Well, first off, if parents did a better job using what I said in my last sentence about praise and rewards, there would be fewer people needing punishment. But, since that's not going to happen, we have what we have.

Sure, rehabilitation would be good. The problem with rehab is what we see with drug addiction. It doesn't have a great track record of success. The person leaves the controlled conditions of rehab or prison and goes right back into the environment that caused their problems initially. It's like going on a diet. When the person reaches their goal weight, that they white knuckled their way to by depriving themself of foods they really want, they go back to eating the way they did before the diet and balloon right back up again. There has to be a fundamental life change outside of prison for rehabilitation to work. That comes from inside not from outside. It's like trying to "give" someone courage. It can't be done from the outside in.

[Kuch]

I think a good criminal justice system should have both punishment and rehabilitation, but not everything can have rehabilitation associated with it.

Drug use is one area where rehabilitation may have some usefulness, but really only so much as the recipient is willing to accept.

How could we expect to rehabilitate a multiple murderer, rapist, or pedophile? I honestly don’t think you can.

It’s funny we are discussing this now. The other day I went with our confinement NCO to the local jail to visit the military inmates there. All are there because of drugs or theft. One of the prisoners mentioned that he wouldn’t have done drugs if he knew he would go to jail (and that the jail would be as bad as it is). Mind you, 4 other troops in his unit went to jail before he was busted for drugs too, so I was amazed he didn’t make the connection between the behavior and the punishment. Well, his revelation sparked a discussion where these guys thought it would be great to allow them to talk to the younger troops about the evils and consequences of drug use in the military, sort of like a “Scared Straight” program. I told them I doubted I could sell the idea to the base commander of having a bunch of prisoners brief our most impressionable airmen. They all seemed a will crestfallen when I told them most people don’t have to go to jail to realize they don’t want to be there or talk to prisoners to know that they don’t want to do drugs. I guess its easier for some than others.

[VF500]

Rehab does work for some people, but only if those people make a basic life change. It's internal not external. A lot of criminals become less violent when they reach their fifties (or sixties). Well, no shit, they go through changes in testoterone levels and other physical changes that tend to make them less violent.
Occasionally someone will get religion or have some other epiphany of consciousness that will turn their life around. That's great. I'm not much on religion but I welcome and accept success in any form. Rehab itself is just a bandage. It's one more chamber in prison's revolving door.
A bad habit can be like a warm fire that makes you feel good but occasionally burns you too. Moving away from the warmth and thinking you'll get used to being cold through will power is a fallacy. You're eventually going to have a weak moment and feel you should "reward" yourself for doing so good or that you can handle it "just this once". Bingo. You're right back where you were. Instead of moving away from something, the person has to move toward something else. (Build a house with a heat pump that doesn't have a fire, for instance.) That goes for drugs, alcohol, violent life style, obesity, what ever. Clamping the lid ever tighter on a pressure cooker isn't the answer. You have to remove the heat source. Lectures won't do squat on their own.