i believe that this falls under the heading of OOOPS

[mbossman2]

According to the Tennessee Center for Policy Research (http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/article.php?article_id=367), Al Gore is quite the energy consumer:


electricity consumption 20 x the national average (221,000 kWh vs 10,656 kWh)
consumption has increased by 12% since the release of An Inconvenient Truth (a tad bit of irony there)
in August 2006, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh—more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year.


and before anyone jumps to his defense, Tennessee gets its power from the TVA, of which almost 60% comes from coal fired generating plants...I bet they dump uncounted tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.

[Redfallon]

I have no problem with someone using as much electricity as they can afford to comfortably use. Hypocrisy, however, stinks.

[troysvihl]

Yeah, I have a hard time getting upset over his energy use.

His claims that he's "offsetting" his use is pretty weak, IMHO. The modern day equivalent of buying indulgences.

[troysvihl]

The Economist does a pretty good job of blowing up the practice of "offsetting":

The carbon offsets, on the other hand, sound like a very reasonable plan. That is, they did until I began thinking about them.

Most carbon offsets seem to work on one of a few principles: they plant trees, invest in renewable energy sources, or pay someone in a developing country to use some less-polluting technology, like a CFL.

It turns out that a lot of websites have already devoted quite a lot of space to discussing why these plans don't work particularly well. Calculating one's carbon output, and the carbon savings from various offsets, is very tricky and may be manipulated by unscrupulous offset firms. Trees take quite a long time to get to the stage where they are actually absorbing all that carbon—and tend to die shortly thereafter, releasing all that carbon back into the atmosphere, there to wreak havoc. By legitimating carbon usage, offset companies may actually be increasing it.

But surprisingly few make what, to me, seems like a more basic point: energy is a tradable market good. It is not as if there is some fixed demand for energy, so that by using less carbon-emitting energy, you actually decrease the amount of carbon emitted.

This is, of course, ridiculous. When you donate money to build a new windfarm, you don't take any of the old, polluting power offline; you increase the supply of power, reducing the price until others are encouraged to buy more carbon-emitting power. On the margin, it may make some difference, since demand for electricity is not perfectly elastic, but nowhere near the one-for-one equivalence that carbon offsets would seem to suggest. Especially since the worst offenders, big coal-fired plants, are not the ones that renewables will substitute for; solar and wind power are not good replacements for baseload power. Instead, renewables are likely to take relatively clean (and expensive) natural gas plants offline, since those are the ones that provide "extra" power to the system. Similarly, by giving villagers in Goa energy-saving CFL bulbs, you do not lessen the amount of electricity consumed; rather, you make it possible for other people to purchase the extra energy freed up by more efficient lightbulbs. This may be excellent poverty policy, but it does not lessen the carbon footprint of your international flight.


http://www.economist.com/debate/freeexchange/2007/02/the_oscar_win_for_al.cfm

[David M]

Oh how can anyone get upset at Algore?....he does sooo much for the environment. :rolleyes: I would imagine his chartered aircraft also run on corn based aviation fuel. His hybrid limousine I'm sure gets 50 MPG.

[troysvihl]

He's like one of those religious leaders that gets caught buggering boys or doing a line off a prostitute's ass.

[Computer Hobby]

Troy

You use electricity? So does Al Gore. I guess you are both like one of those religious leaders caught buggering the boys.

That was a very inapt comparison. One is legal, the other isn't. Anyway he never claimed to be holier than thou.

[troysvihl]

Um, no. Gore isn't like the priest simply because he uses electricity. Nor was my comparisson based upon the legality of his actions.

My comparison is founded on the fact that Gore has been shown to be preaching one thing but doing another.

And yes, Gore does claim to be holier than thou. I've head him on a number of occasions bragging about how his "carbon footprint" is zero. As explained by the Economist, the concept of carbon offsetting is bullshit. Not only that, but Gore has been producing way more carbon dioxide than the vast majority of other Americans.

So not only is he not carbon neutral, he's probably one of the single largest producers of carbon dioxide in the world. And just like a priest that has been caught buggering boys, Gore has been shown to be a giant hypocrit.

[Computer Hobby]

"he's probably one of the single largest producers of carbon dioxide in the world."

That is probably a little over the top. Of course, we all get to believe what we want to believe.

As to the merits of the charge. What proof does the AEI put forth? Oh, you know Tennessee group that made the charge is an AEI front don't you?

[Computer Hobby]

There is an old saying that a lie can travel all the way around the world before the truth gets out of bed. I think that applies to this story. I have been doing a little reading. The charge is that Al Gore's house uses 20 times the energy of the average family. The implication is that he isn't doing a damn thing to keep his energy usage down. I have read here that some of you acknowledge that Gore is involved in some sort of energy credit purchase program (mostly available to the rich) and you have stuck your noses up.

OK lets look at the facts.

I picked these up from the AP, and from a story done on Countdown. For some of you they won't have the authenticity of a fake organization like the Tennessee Center For Policy Research but what the heck. You get to believe any lie you want.

Here are the facts. According to the AP Gore's house is 10,000 square feet. There was a picture of the house with the story. It looks like an old Tennessee mansion. When those old houses were built nobody gave a shit about energy conservation. The average house in Tennessee is about 1,200 square feet, so it is about 8 times the size of the average house. Gore also has a guest house (about the size of an average house, and two out buildings on the same meter.) Because he was VP and to protect himself from conservatives who would love to love him with an IED he has special security measures installed on his property. The special security measures take a lot of energy.

OK, he should be using the equivalent of 10 or 12 homes. The charge is that he is using the energy equivalent of 20 homes. The charge is based on the claims of the Tennessee Center for Policy Research that they have reviewed his energy usage for last year. Guess what the local utility says they had never heard of the Tennessee Center for Policy Research. They have no idea where they got their information. My guess is they just made it up realizing that nobody they were trying to impress (you guys) would ever ask them for proof.

The AP reporting from the utility bills it has actually seen, Gore used 191,000 kilowatts last year. The average household in his part of the country uses about 15,000 kilowatts. By the way Tennessee energy usage is about 50% higher than the rest of the country because of an ugly combination of hot summers and cold winters. I know I live in Missouri one state over. Same deal. Those of you living in Florida or New York don't have a clue. So Gore's estate is really using 12 or 13 times the energy of the average household, just a little more than what you would expect considering the size of his estate and its extra energy needs.

Are you guys playing class warfare because he is rich or because you aren't or what. Or is the charge he isn't doing anything to help his cause.

Well this might shock you--last summer Gore installed solar panels to cut his energy consumption. That's right he actually installed the solar panels before the breathless story broke but after much of his energy usage last summer. Talk about doing something to walk the walk. In addition he is paying upto $450 extra each month to buy "green" power. Frankly, my bitch with Gore is that he is wasting money paying for the "green" power. He would do better if he installed an in ground heat pump and finished installiing his solar panels.

In short, unless you have decided to dog Gore simply because he is rich and can afford a big house, it is pretty clear that his energy usage on a square foot basis isn't very far out of line with the rest of us. It is also clear that unlike anybody on this board, at least anybody who will fess up to being energy conscious, he is trying to do something to keep his energy usage down.

I have actually known people with big old houses like Gores. One guy I know finally gave up and sold. He couldn't afford the utility bills.

Troy made the breathless charge that Gore is "one of the largest producers of carbon dioxide in the world." Obviously, he hasn't ever been to Palm Beach County or Southern California. A 10,000 square foot house might be big by Troy's standards but a lot of the Americans I know live in far larger homes.

[troysvihl]

Arguments that other people use lots of energy too isn't going to make Gore less of a hypocrit.

[Computer Hobby]

Arguments that other people use lots of energy too isn't going to make Gore less of a hypocrit.

Troy my argument is that on a square foot basis, for where he lives, he uses about the same energy as everybody else. In fact he probably uses less given that he has installed solar panels.

Are you righties jealous of Gore because he is rich enough to afford a big house or are you all just jealous of him because he actually gets off his ass and does something while you all just biitch?

[troysvihl]

That's right junior, the other kids pick on you because they're just jealous.

[Computer Hobby]

Call me names, but every time somebody with money does something right the guys pulling your chains play the class warfare card. You righties fall for it every time.

Tells me you just can't stand any uppity rich man who stands for something.

By the way I love the personal attack. Is that something thin skinned righties get to do with impunity around here.

[jessho]

You know CH, as time progresses, your posts are becoming nothing but personal attacks when people confront your opinions and force you to present logical reasons for these opinions. It's tiresome and I'm beginning to wonder about your emotional health.

[Computer Hobby]

Jessho

I didn't make a personal attack on Troy. He attacked me. He made no argument at all. He just attacked. It is par for the course around here. You all just can't stand it when you encounter somebody who hasn't drunk the coolaid.

[heyhey]

Call me names, but every time somebody with money does something right the guys pulling your chains play the class warfare card. You righties fall for it every time.

Tells me you just can't stand any uppity rich man who stands for something.

By the way I love the personal attack. Is that something thin skinned righties get to do with impunity around here.

CH truth is unless you are an uppity richman you probably dont have much of a microphone to have your voice heard.... so they get many chances at taking swing at rich liberalism as being an oxymoron..... in fact when it is far from it....

There are plenty of Rich people far more liberal then Al Gore. I grew up in Manhatten and Island almost entirely inhabited by rich liberals. Having money doesnt make you unable to speak for those who do not.

And climate change is not a class issue. I'd like to see the energy expenduture comparison of rich conservatives to Al Gore.... I'm sure the difference would be astounding...

[troysvihl]

Jessho

I didn't make a personal attack on Troy. He attacked me. He made no argument at all. He just attacked. It is par for the course around here. You all just can't stand it when you encounter somebody who hasn't drunk the coolaid.

Where did I attack you?

[jessho]

You all just can't stand it when you encounter somebody who hasn't drunk the coolaid.

Paranoia is a form of mental illness.

[Computer Hobby]

"That's right junior. . ."

[Computer Hobby]

Jessho, I take it you didn't read my 11 paragraph response to the trumped up charge against Gore, or maybe 11 paragraphs doesn't count as a "reasoned response" when the other guy doesn't agree with you.

The mental health shit is getting old. Do you have any real response to my counter argument.

[troysvihl]

Wow. You must see everything as a personal attack.

[Computer Hobby]

If it wasn't to insult, why did you call me "junior," sonny.

You know I am decades older than you.

[troysvihl]

First off, it wasn't directed at you. I was mimicing the lies that some parents tell their kids to show how weak your point was. I.e., "Mom, Tommy keeps picking on me." "Oh don't worry junior, Tommy just picks on you because he is secretly jealous."

Secondly, even if I had directed it at you, calling someone "junior" is hardly a personal insult.

[Computer Hobby]

You are right. It isn't as if you called me a faggot like we could expect from Republican spokesperson Ann Coulter. :)

As to the substance of your argument, you are right. Others wasting energy isn't an excuse.

[jessho]

Jessho, I take it you didn't read my 11 paragraph response to the trumped up charge against Gore, or maybe 11 paragraphs doesn't count as a "reasoned response" when the other guy doesn't agree with you.

The mental health shit is getting old. Do you have any real response to my counter argument.

Your counter argument only reinforces that Gore is a hypocrite. He has an oversized house; his usage of electricity is more than what is considered average; his installation of solar panels was started way after his supposed "documentary" was at the theater. The "bogus" Tennessee Center (http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/page.php) for Policy Research has a website, although you don't believe it exists because the AP hasn't done it's homework. (matter of fact, you didn't either)

You've skated all around the point that Gore is preaching for lowering carbon dioxide emmissions while thumbing his nose at the people he is supposedly trying to help. In the process, you use the same derogatory attacks on anyone that questions your opinions, which are opinions and not fact.

[Computer Hobby]

"Oversized" by what standard? I guess by your thinking any rich man living in a big house is a hypocrite if he points out that we as a society are using too much electricity.

The front group to which you show so much loyalty uses "average usage" based on a national and not regional average. That average includes not just homes but apartments. Most importantly Gore lives in Tennessee which has an average usage 50% higher than the national average.

Should he move out of Tennessee to meet your demands?

Third, the AEI front group to which you ascribe all truth said he used 221,000 kilowatts in 2006. In fact he used 191,000 during that year. That is he used about 86% of the amount estimated by your beloved and unexamined front group. It is known from the utility that the front group didn't actually see his bills.

What if the front group made its statement based on assumptions given the size of his house and other things they could see from the gate. What if they were right? The actual usage is 86% of what they estimated? Gee I wonder if the solar panels he installed towards the end of last summer has anything to do with the discrepancy.

Why don't you ask that question of the AEI front group?

The front group has a website!!!! woooooooo!!!! That proves exactly what?

Jessho, your chain has been jerked.

[jessho]

Actually CH, once again, you've completely avoided the original argument that Gore is a hypocrite. You've also attacked me personally. What's worse, the obvious escapes you because you are unwilling to address your issues.

[Computer Hobby]

Jessho

Exactly how is Gore a hypocrite? Is he a hypocrite for being rich? Is he a hypocrite for owninig a big house? Tell me, please tell me, why are you righties playing the class warfare card? What are you afraid of?

By the way the according to a Nashville News Paper (http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?news_id=54656) the Tennessee Department of Revenue doesn't consider your front organization to be a legitimate group.

Their other claim to fame. They have been tireless champions in the fight against Tennessee taxing crack dealers. (Taxing criminal activity is a technique often used to put criminals behind bars--think Al Capone.) Are you in favor of Crack Dealers Jessho?

[jessho]

I hope you didn't read the article CH.

Their other claim to fame. They have been tireless champions in the fight against Tennessee taxing crack dealers. (Taxing criminal activity is a technique often used to put criminals behind bars--think Al Capone.) Are you in favor of Crack Dealers Jessho?

I, also, hope you allowed a graduate law student write this.

[Computer Hobby]

Jessho

Why are you in favor of not taxing crack dealers? Do you use crack? Are you trying to keep the cost down? The fact is Jessho, the crack dealers won't pay the tax, when they don't the State of Tennessee will have another way to put them behind bars. I guess you are four square in favor ot coddling crack dealers. Poor babiies. They need Jessho's protection and the protection of the Tennesseee Center of silly right wing positions, because they have a website.

You haven't answered my question Jessho, just how is Gore a hypocrite? Is he a hypocrite for being rich? For having a big house? For putting up solar panels?

Do you swallow every bit of bait the right wing noise machine dangles in front of you? Do you ever wonder if you are being had by Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Coulter et al? Is there something comfortable about being invinicibly ignorant?

[jessho]

It doesn't work CH. Try talking to a therapist.

[Computer Hobby]

It doesn't work CH. Try talking to a therapist.

Answer the questions.

The only thing about this conversation suggesting I might need a therapist is that I keep asking you to support your conclusion that Gore is a hypocrite and you keep trying to change the subject. Answer the question.

[WJWheels]

You are right. It isn't as if you called me a faggot like we could expect from Republican spokesperson Ann Coulter. :)
"Republican spokesperson"??? Hardly, though I'd certainly agree she's a pundit and an author spouting Republican talk, she's hardly a "spokesperson" for the party.

As to your sexual orientation, CH; that's really more information than this subject calls for. :p

[Computer Hobby]

She isn't a Republican spokesperson? Sorry. My bad.

How about Republican favorite? :)

[jessho]

Straight from Al Gore's site. (http://www.climatecrisis.net/pdf/10things.pdf) Ten things to do, unless you are Al Gore.

1. Change to fluorescent lighting.....Al, judging by the size of his house, uses more electricity with his fluorescent lighting (if he has any) than a normal house with incandescent lighting.

2. Drive less....This enables Al Gore to fly more.

3. Recycle more.... I wonder if Al's garbage is as abundant as his square feet. If so, his carbon footprint is way more than an average household.

4. Check your tires.... Does than include all of them? I own one. I wonder how many he has.

5. Use less hot water...Unless it's to heat your pool.

6. Avoid products with lots of packaging....This I can't comment on, except that the DVD's he sells are in plastic cases with plastic wrappings.

7. Adjust your thermostat....All of them. Al, due to the size of his house, has more than one thermostat. Generally there is one per 2500 square feet. I don't have enough information about his other three houses to determine how many there are.

8. Plant a tree....I can't argue with this, except that it's an erroneous assumption that trees are better in reducing carbon dioxide than savannahs and other grasslands. How about more Golf courses? Al could join OJ and they will have more places to search for Nicole's murderers.

9. Turn off electronic devices...Like computer servers that run web sites or security camaras.

10. This one I'm not sure of except that it's to buy the DVD's, which are packaged in plastic and the sales are processed by electronic devices that remain on to keep his web page available.

Nothing about solar panels. I'm guessing someone looked at the carbon footprint needed to produce, deliver, install and maintain these critters.

[Computer Hobby]

Thank you. I appreciate your effort.

Snarks aside, did it really hurt you to go to Gore's site?

[jedi_knight01]

If Al Gore had his way we would all be living in the dark, while he sucks up all of the available energy....

[heyhey]

She isn't a Republican spokesperson? Sorry. My bad.

How about Republican favorite? :)
Republican "darling" more like it.

[heyhey]

Bill Gates and Melinda I'm sure live in a big house too and spend lots of Money on things... that does not negate all they've done for the poor worldwide.

rich people who help people and causes do not have to be Ghandi or mother Teresa giving up all their worldy possession to do such...that would be a tenet of communism anyway if they did that... you righties biggest sin....


Fact of the matter is Gore has done more to bring Global Warming to the attention of the average american (and world for that matter) citizen then anyone else. He is a HUGE part of the solution not the problem.. He may even win the nobel peace prize for all his efforts.... even with his "big" house... which I am sure by other super wealthy people's standards is not that big at all.

Your hypocrite argument is a big fat red herring.

[jessho]

Fact of the matter is Gore has done more to bring Global Warming to the attention of the average american (and world for that matter) citizen then anyone else. He is a HUGE part of the solution not the problem.. He may even win the nobel peace prize for all his efforts.... even with his "big" house... which I am sure by other super wealthy people's standards is not that big at all.

Solution to what? There's no proof that global warming is caused by humans. To add insult to injury, Gore has created a film, with incorrect information and used it to promote his agenda.

So, according to you, if you have money you can ignore the supposed global warming and live without any concern of how it's hypocritical.

Do you really think this is a logical argument?

[Computer Hobby]

Three questions Jessho.

1. Have you seen Gore's movie?

2. What is incorrect in Gore's film.

I have never heard a single person attack his facts.

3. Assume global warming, what does it matter if it is or isn't caused by human activities. As somebody who owns real estate in southern Florida, my building would still be under water either way.

[jessho]

I won't answer your questions CH because they have absolutely no bearing on the discussion. As I've written before, you have skated completely around the point. As a matter of fact, this thread has reached an end for me. I won't open it anymore.

[Computer Hobby]

I won't answer your questions CH because they have absolutely no bearing on the discussion. As I've written before, you have skated completely around the point. As a matter of fact, this thread has reached an end for me. I won't open it anymore.

Jessho,

You won't answer because you don't like what you would have to say if you were honest. You made some completely unsupported statements. I called you on them. Simply asked for support. You pick up your ball and go home.

By the way, if your comments had no bearing on the discussion, why did you make them.

One thread for the good guys.