Quotes: Religion, Philosophy, & Politics

[themistocles]

When we debate on this board, some members substitute arguments with quotations. I'm not a big fan of this. If you have a point, you should be able to muster up the reason to make it.

However, quotes are great for talking points or something to mull over. So I'm making the invitation to post a quote or three of something that resonates with you, why you like that particular quote, and be prepared to defend/discuss it. Perhaps a debate different from the predictable talking points of news items may ensue.

:)

In conjunction with each other, these quotes from Montesquieu and Voltaire I particularly like:

Voltaire, Treatise on Toleration
Such is the feebleness of humanity, such is its perversity, that doubtless it is better for it to be subject to all possible superstitions, as long as they are not murderous, than to live without religion. Man always needs a rein, and even if it might be ridiculous to sacrifice to fauns, or sylvans, or naiads, it is much more reasonable and more useful to venerate these fantastic images of the Divine than to sink into atheism. An atheist who is rational, violent, and powerful, would be as great a pestilence as a blood-mad, superstitious man.
When men do not have healthy notions of the Divinity, false ideas supplant them, just as in bad times one uses counterfeit money when there is no good money. The pagan feared to commit any crime, out of fear of punishment by his false gods; the Malabarian fears to be punished by his pagoda. Wherever there is a settled society, religion is necessary; the laws cover manifest crimes, and religion covers secret crimes.

and

Montesquieu, Persian Letters #13
Consequently, even if there were no God, we should nonetheless still love justice, that is to say, make an effort to resemble this being of whom we have so exalted a conception, and who if he existed would be just necessarily. Even if we were free of the constraints of religion, we ought not to be free of those imposed by equity.

As an atheist, I have no problem arguing the atheist point of view or pointing out the flaws of religion and faith. However, I loathe "militant atheists". The world would not be better without religion. Religion is a historical necessity which has created our modern conception of justice and has a hand in virtually every worthwhile social value judgment we have. Religion, over time, has been more efficient in establishing just norms than reason ever could have.

Although these quotations are only parts of larger texts with more specific messages, I thought they on their own were effective in conveying the sentiment that religion has a sort of historical social necessity which I think should otherwise be self-evident.

Thoughts?

Any quotations to add and discuss?

[heyhey]

great topic... i would have replied sooner but rarely come to this board....it tends to attrack some nutsy people but this is the makings of a good debate Themis...

do you know what Sigmond Freud's theory on beleiving in God basically is?

That when a boy (or girl) is young they view their father as perfect, all-knowing and incapeable of making mistake....

when they come of age they see their father's flaws.... but are insecure about being alone without guiadance and fear their own ultimate demise therefore they start turning to a "higher power"...

Thence the persona "The Father" is created...

I'm not saying I agree with this but it is good food for thought....


here is an interesting follow-up quote to yours.... (I really like Voltaire by the way he is one of my favorite philosphers):

<I>A cult is a religion with no political power.
- Thomas Wolfe </I>


as for religion being a social necessity.... I see it two ways... yes and no...overall though I think organized religion complicates issues and causes more problems then good...

most of the wars fought in history... even if not in the political motives of leaders and power brokers....
,were supported by the masses becuase of religioous conotations incribed into the propoganda for them. .. but I suppose in the absence of religion leaders pushing a war would find an equally amicable substitute...

[drisley]

Religion is very much a necessity. You can trace almost any lost civilization's decline to the point where they began to go aetheistic.

Heyday, wars have never been caused by religion. They were caused by supressive men who used religion as their excuse and motivating power.

[heyhey]

Originally posted by drisley
Religion is very much a necessity. You can trace almost any lost civilization's decline to the point where they began to go aetheistic.

Heyday, wars have never been caused by religion. They were caused by supressive men who used religion as their excuse and motivating power.

Dris thats exactly what I said- read my post.

[themistocles]

To change gears, here is one:

Livy, Book XXIV.25
Indeed, that is the nature of crowds: the mob is either a humble slave or a cruel master.

A quote I think nearly everyone can agree to, but interpret differently.

I think a difficult question to ask in light of that quote is: how importantly should we consider public opinion? Beyond practical reasons, of course.

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by drisley
Religion is very much a necessity. You can trace almost any lost civilization's decline to the point where they began to go aetheistic.

Heyday, wars have never been caused by religion. They were caused by supressive men who used religion as their excuse and motivating power.

God Bless America? RIGHT?

How many times have you heard Jorge WB saying that?

[Gintaras]

Originally posted by drisley
Religion is very much a necessity.

Yes, for masses being brainwashed by priests(child molesters), rabbies(perverts and those who eat beacon), etc, etc...

comes along very well with Political Prostitutes- Presidents, Senators, etc, etc.

Religion is just another form of brainwashing, to keep public in control.

[themistocles]

God Bless America? RIGHT?

How many times have you heard Jorge WB saying that?

What's oppressive about saying that?

Religion is just another form of brainwashing, to keep public in control.

What, is the desirable state one with a public "out of control"? :p

[heyhey]

Originally posted by themistocles
What, is the desirable state one with a public "out of control"? :p

hmm sounds like something Saddam would say....

or Hitler,even...

Zieg hiel just what I want a presdient to be in total control of us all.

I'm no anarchist.... but I'd rather live under anarchy then a dictator.

[heyhey]

Here's a great quote I found in a book I read recenty...

<I>"Every religion describes God through metaphor, allergory and exaggeration , from the Eqyptians through modern Sunday school. Metaphors are a way to help our mind process the unprocessable. The problems arise when we begin to believe literally in our own metaphors." </I>

Considering how Bin Laden interperts his Koran when it comes to Jihad and how Jerry Farwell interperts his Bible when it comes to homosexuality or stem-cell research... I found the quote very prophetic and very applicable to current events even though the quote is from a work of fiction (<i>The DaVinci Code </i>)

What do you think?

[themistocles]

hmm sounds like something Saddam would say....

or Hitler,even...

Disappointing, heyhey, that has to be the mother of all hyperboles to say that arguing against anarchism is tantamount to Nazism. :rolleyes:

I'm no anarchist.... but I'd rather live under anarchy then a dictator.

Why? You, as a Democrat, before anyone should realize the positive force government has by its inherent existence.

I found the quote very prophetic and very applicable to current events even though the quote is from a work of fiction (The DaVinci Code )

What do you think?

I agree with the quote, for the most part. I think it echoes the Montesquieu quote in sentiment, slightly.

Circumstances and context excepted, however, I should say everyone should appreciate near absolutes in values and judgements.

[heyhey]

Have you read The Davinci code? You should really read it if you haven't It is a great book... bordering on great <i> literature </I> actually .... probably the best contemporary novel I have read .... the writer did tremendous research before writing it.... its loaded with interesting cavets of information.... the main character is male but it really is about the feminine mystique and how historicaly Christianity took women out of the equation of religion. from a place in time where they were a cental force in it..... .I read it in a single afternoon/evening.. couldn't put it down...lots of twists and turns.... I doubt they could ever pull off nearly as good of a movie version... but I'm sure they will try.... :)

I'm reading a similar book now about a group of college roomies at Princeton... trying to decode a book from the Renasaince... there's alot more Jewish Numeric mysticism in it instead of of the thread of catholism.. but its pretty good so far... its not so sitting at the edge of the seat intriging as you turn each page... as Davinci code is but its pretty well written.. at least so far... I'll let you know... its so far set entirley at Princeton but I'm confident the author will take us to other places as the book develops..... anyway I like puzzles and symbolism which is exactly what religion seems to be....

the book Im reading now is called <I> Rule of Four </I>

[heyhey]

if you have read the Davinci code... or even if you haven't try this game Random House used as a promotion... the prize was a trip to paris but the contest is over but the game still exists.... its pretty entertaining....and parts are pretty difficult seems there are codes in the jacket cover of the book and even for people who dont own it you can magnify the jacket cover online to see them and play the game:

http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/davinci/main.html

[themistocles]

Yeah, everyone in my family has read it, I haven't though. I've unintentionally abandoned fiction, but everyone seems to have a high regard for the book. I might cram it in yet.

[heyhey]

try the game I listed it might inspire you to read it.

[TRUE-BRIT]

Every forum as its debater who smothers [prostitutes] his post with quotations from some ancient. Quotations that are pretty, pretty, and more ornamental than useful. If we are going to have a debate then tell us what you have seen, witnessed, observed, feel, and wonder about. Tell us whats bothering you. Questions up for grabs:

In Auschwitz Concentration Camp an rabbi ran from barracks to barracks screaming at fellow Jewish prisoners that 'there was no God' 'there was no God', he was excited, had suffered great anxiety and shock, probably some abuse, and had found out his family had been gassedand, he was led away and either shot or gassed. Was he right, why was he right, or was he wrong.

TRUE-BRIT. [Please stick to facts not philosophy or myths]