Trinity

[Morning Calm]

Any Catholics hangin out here? I'd like to rape about the Trinity.....

What I'd like to know is do you guys believe that the Holy Spirit came after Jesus was resurrected or did it always exist?

[mbossman2]

1st off: the trinity is not just a "catholic" thing. it is a christian view of God.

2nd, this is a tough concept for most people to understand but i'll give it a shot.

The Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) are 3 different aspects of God. The Father is God, the Son, is the only begotten son of God and the Holy Spirit, the messenger form of God.

Now, as an allegory to this, Christians believe that God is love (as outlined in John: I John 4:8, 16) and for love to exist, there must be three parts of love:

The lover
The loved
The love that binds them together.

Now if God is Love, and love needs these three elements, then these elements must exist in God. And they do: God the Father is the Eternal Lover, God the Son is the Beloved and the Holy Spirit is the Divine Love binding Them together eternally.

[Morning Calm]

Originally posted by mbossman2
1st off: the trinity is not just a "catholic" thing. it is a christian view of God.

True, but there are many versions of the trinity. Martin Luther anyone?

[mbossman2]

the more I thought about my reply the more I found it wanting, so I thought I'd bring in a "big gun" answer, so I sent this post to my uncle, who happens to be a priest as well as a professor of Jewish-Christian Studies at Seton Hall (and whole bunch of other things academic) and asked him to look at this thread and pose a reply.

Here it is:

Good question. Jesus does say, "I will send you another Paraclete” (John 14:16, 26), suggesting that the Holy Spirit came after Jesus. Traditional Christian belief (not just Catholic), however, is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-eternal: "We believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary." Jesus is the Word made flesh, viz. the hypostatic union of the pre-existing second person of the Trinity, of which the Holy Spirit is the third, with human flesh. Thus, Christians believe that the divine nature is one but there are three co-eternal persons. The incarnation is the second person becoming united with a human nature, giving Jesus one person with two natures, divine and human. When Jesus "returns to the Father" he/they send the Paraclete to aid and assist Christians through life, thus the Holy Spirit becomes a constant presence within the believer awaiting the return of Jesus in glory. All of this uses available Greek vocabulary and concepts from the period in which Christian beliefs were being shaped for precise formulation at the time of Constantine (4th century) and the early Christian councils held at Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, which struggled with the issues of how to articulate Christian belief regarding Jesus' identity as God and man. A number of "heretical" explanations were rejected in the course of these deliberations, which ultimately produced what we call the Apostles Creed (Matt's edit: http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm).

Hope this helps! Keep in mind that these are human terms used to describe a divine being for which there are no adequate human expressions. The terms represent symbolic forms (words) to characterize what Christians regard as the mystery of the triune deity. The formulation is intended to exclude certain alternative symbolizations that the early Christians thought to be incorrect or misleading. So, there you have it!

Bob


http://artsci.shu.edu/jcst/bossman

in a follow up email:

It's a lot of jargon, but, as I say, it's an attempt using available concepts and terms to explain the unexplainable "mystery" of the Christian deity. Jews struggled to accept that Christians aren't thereby polytheists, but the formulation intends to keep Christians within the monotheisitic tradition.

St. Augustine's famous story helps: A little boy dug a hole in the beach and was taking pails of water from the ocean and pouring them into the hole.
St. A. happened by and asked the boy what he was doing. The boy answered, "I'm putting the ocean into that hole."

"You can't put the whole ocean into that little hole!" Augustine blurted out.

The boy replied, "And neither can you, Augustine, understand the Trinity."

Hope this helps - matt

[Alan]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
Any Catholics hangin out here? I'd like to rape about the Trinity.....

Rape? I hope you mean rap!!

[bob]

Originally posted by Alan
Rape? I hope you mean rap!!

Nope he is a priest. :D :D


Now mbossman2, I could empty my entire bladder into that hole.
I hear:
Way back then the world was flat and very small. I heard it was not very old - 5000 years or something like that - never heard how big. I suspect it was not that many miles before you got to the edge. :)

[Morning Calm]

Opps...bad spelling.

So from reading what your bro wrote, from his perspective the Trinity is only a way to explain how parts of God were divided like the big band theory. God got mad cuz everyone was sinning and going to hell so he exploded with his holy spirit, got virgin mary pregnate, and out popped part of him.

But there is the flaw. You said that the Holy Spirit is sort of responsible for getting mary knocked up right? Well, how can you say that it didn't exist until the baby of this master deed died and went to heaven?

Sorry for the hick talk and I mean no disrespect to God.

[mbossman2]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
But there is the flaw. You said that the Holy Spirit is sort of responsible for getting mary knocked up right? Well, how can you say that it didn't exist until the baby of this master deed died and went to heaven?

Sorry for the hick talk and I mean no disrespect to God.

Never said what aspect of God brought about the Immaculate Conception, not sure if that is covered in the Bible.

The Trinity is, while not exactly a mystery of the Church, an extremely difficult thing to understand and like many things outside of our immediate ability to see, touch or hold, must be taken as a matter of faith.

[WindeC]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
Opps...bad spelling.

So from reading what your bro wrote, from his perspective the Trinity is only a way to explain how parts of God were divided like the big band theory. God got mad cuz everyone was sinning and going to hell so he exploded with his holy spirit, got virgin mary pregnate, and out popped part of him.

But there is the flaw. You said that the Holy Spirit is sort of responsible for getting mary knocked up right? Well, how can you say that it didn't exist until the baby of this master deed died and went to heaven?

Sorry for the hick talk and I mean no disrespect to God.

The Trinity is made up of 3 persons but one God. Its virtually like a family of three, perhaps, quintriplets. They all have the same last name, but different first names.

And like Mbossman said, its a matter of faith. It can't really be explained.

[SARGE]

I can't see the wind but sure can feel it.

[mbossman2]

Originally posted by WindeC
The Trinity is made up of 3 persons but one God. Its virtually like a family of three, perhaps, quintriplets. They all have the same last name, but different first names.

And like Mbossman said, its a matter of faith. It can't really be explained.

it is not that it CAN'T be explained, it just that the words of man are not capable of encompassing the whole truth, our vocabulary is just not big enough or comprehensive enough to answer the question.

[WindeC]

I also don't think the human brain could fully understand it or comphrehend it either.

[WJWheels]

Speak for yourself. I've got it down pat.

[WindeC]

Really? Suppose you give your divine view then.

[WJWheels]

Nah.. you wouldn't understand. You said so yourself. With age will come wisdom, my young one. ;)

[WindeC]

Yeah, and with age also comes stupidity and forgetfulness, you had better tell me before you go all blank.

If you haven't already gone blank :eek:

[Morning Calm]

Originally posted by WJWheels
Speak for yourself. I've got it down pat.

Okay, I call you on it.

Explain to me exactly what the Holy Spirit is then.

[bob]

Originally posted by mbossman2
it is not that it CAN'T be explained, it just that the words of man are not capable of encompassing the whole truth, our vocabulary is just not big enough or comprehensive enough to answer the question.

If true, then how can the bible be taken literaly? ;)

[Morning Calm]

same can be said about our constitution. ;)

[bob]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
same can be said about our constitution. ;)

Damm MC - You grabbed my royal flush "right" out of my sleeve. :D

[Morning Calm]

God bless America!

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
Okay, I call you on it.

Explain to me exactly what the Holy Spirit is then. MC, I'll give you the same answer I gave WindeC, exept in your case "with age will come only old age".

[Morning Calm]

Originally posted by WJWheels
MC, I'll give you the same answer I gave WindeC, exept in your case "with age will come only old age".

In other words, you have no fucking idea.

:lol:

[mbossman2]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
In other words, you have no fucking idea.

:lol:

Some of the greatest theological minds of the last 2000 years have debated and kicked around this subject and as was pointed out before, by an "expert" in the field, you are trying to use the language of mortal man to describe the divine, it just ain't gonna happen, you are only going to get segments of the whole (for those the scientific bent: kind of like trying to figure out what a zebra looks like based on a crossection of tissue viewed in an electron miscroscope. In addition I would look at anyone with a jaundiced eye who claims to have the complete answer.

Bob, the Bible, IMHO, should not be taken literally, altho there are Christian sects who do in fact feel that the Bible should be. There are a couple of reasons for this:

1) The Bible is an allegory for the tenets of the Christian religion and give to the reader of a code of conduct along with examples of a person of the Christian faith should strive to live up to.

2) there have been many translations of the Book over time so the exact words have been lost, but the divine message carries thru no matter what the words used.

I will not debate the validity of those (my) beliefs with you as they require many aspects to be accepted as a matter of faith. Before you jump all over that, I would ask you to examine your belief system (scientific, secular humanism whatever) and take a look at the many things that are personally unobservable and that you must take as a matter of faith. Faith is faith, whether the "proof" is in the Good Book, or in some arcane scientific tome.

In response to MC, the Constitution can be interpreted literally, as written for a couple of reasons:

1) The original, unaltered text exists today (if you have never had the chance go to the National Archives and check it out).

2) There are written records (in the orginal english) of the thoughts, concerns and musings of the framers of the constitution and what exactly their intents were for the entire document. I believe that we do the authors and FF's a great disservice by ignoring their views.

It is the fact that the judiciary system has swung from a group whose task was adjudicating disputes to one who creates law from the bench. Examples of this: the "right" of privacy, the defacto change of the 1st amendment from freedom OF religion to freedom FROM religion that has led to a very slippery slope of allowing a very small group of unelected, lifetime appointed officials to make fundamental changes to the rights of the citizens of the USA.

Oh and finally MC, I would to hear your great, deep insightful view of the Christian Trinity. All I have seen from you in this thread is single line sniping and smart assed responses. You wanted to rap about this subject lets here your view(and shit can the sarcasm).

[bob]

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

[Morning Calm]

Originally posted by mbossman2
Oh and finally MC, I would to hear your great, deep insightful view of the Christian Trinity. All I have seen from you in this thread is single line sniping and smart assed responses. You wanted to rap about this subject lets here your view(and shit can the sarcasm).

I have a pretty good general idea what the trinity is, but this isn't what this thread is about. My original question had to do with the holy spirit, a aspect of the trinity that is so contriveral many people broke away from the Catholic church and formed their own versions of what they understand the holy spirit to be. In fact, there are only a few religions that actually believe in the Trinity where others believe that God is king and captain, Jesus is second in command, and then we have the holy spirit.

But the Catholic believe that they are equal which was abused and molested so that the priets have the power of God to forgive the moral man. Then evolved into corruption of the spirit as the humans are sinners, thus making the whole Trinity a little less than holy if we are to assume that the Holy Catholic Church and the statues of Mary, the Communion of Saints, and other funny relics are part of the actual Holy Spirit.

I don't mean to give you smart ass remarks, that's just the way that I am. Don't take offense and become bitter that I point out the question and have no fear in asking them. If you don't know, just say you don't know and I'll be content. Then we can understand eachother and search for the answers together other than argueing about who's dick is larger.

[bob]

Boss you would not understand the (scientific, secular humanism whatever) because faith has no role in understanding theory.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
In other words, you have no fucking idea. No.. not it at all. You're way off base. It's just that you know it when you know it - when/if it happens. It's not an "explainable" thing.... kinda like love; or more precisely the different kinds of love - of country, of spouse, of a child, etc. When you have it, you know it, but don't try to explain it to anyone else.

[runawaytrain]

Believe in God and what he stands for and that is all you need. Follow his comandments to the best of your ability, ask for forgiveness of your sins and realize he died for the salvation of our souls and you will be all set.

[Morning Calm]

LOL

Some of you guys sound pretty gullable and would believe anything a guy with a suit is saying about faith and what to do with your money. I guess that's why your republicans.

Even though it doesn't makes sense, you agree withever monkey boy george of the jungle says cause he believes in God and that is all you need to know, CIA and FBI will cover up anything that you don't.

[WindeC]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
LOL

Some of you guys sound pretty gullable and would believe anything a guy with a suit is saying about faith and what to do with your money. I guess that's why your republicans.

Even though it doesn't makes sense, you agree withever monkey boy george of the jungle says cause he believes in God and that is all you need to know, CIA and FBI will cover up anything that you don't.

Mmm, the Holy Spirit is the same as the Son and the God, they are all one and the same and they are equal. We aren't part of the Holy Spirit except in the Catholic Church when you are in a state of grace, then you are one in the same with the Holy Ghost, kinda like if someones sitting on a wall, and you pull yourself up to him/her, you are on the same level.

The problem with religion is that either you believe in it or you don't, and if you are gullible enough to believe that we all came about because of a "accident", our intelligence, the way our bodies are constructed, the animals, the earth, how everything is soo complex, delicate (in many ways) and impossible to duplicate, and yet perfect.

[Morning Calm]

Originally posted by WindeC
Mmm, the Holy Spirit is the same as the Son and the God, they are all one and the same and they are equal. We aren't part of the Holy Spirit except in the Catholic Church when you are in a state of grace, then you are one in the same with the Holy Ghost, kinda like if someones sitting on a wall, and you pull yourself up to him/her, you are on the same level.

I'm not catholic but as my understanding goes, after you are confirmed to the church after 2 years of confirmation which is like the second baptism you become part of the holy spirit.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
Some of you guys sound pretty gullable and would believe anything a guy with a suit is saying about faith and what to do with your money. I guess that's why your republicans. I don't think it's a political thing MC. Some of the most religious people in the country are the blacks, who voted 93% democrat last election. Your ignorance is beyond bounds. I guess you'll never get it.

[WindeC]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
I'm not catholic but as my understanding goes, after you are confirmed to the church after 2 years of confirmation which is like the second baptism you become part of the holy spirit.

As long as you are in are in a state of grace.

[bob]

God hates you WindeC - that is your earned lot in life - a living hell. It is you that causes all your pain in life - not others.
Get a grip and go to rehab - for you that is your family church.
I suggest a close daily relationship with your minister.

[mbossman2]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
I'm not catholic but as my understanding goes, after you are confirmed to the church after 2 years of confirmation which is like the second baptism you become part of the holy spirit.

Confirmation is the sacrament that brings you into the Church as an adult and you are given 7 "gifts":

wisdom
understanding
the spirit of right judgment
the spirit of courage
the spirit of knowledge
the spirit of reverence
the spirit of wonder and awe in Your presence.


It is also the reaffirmation and deepening of your Baptismal gifts.

Many diocese require that candidates for Confirmation spend 2 years or so in (part time) service of the Church (acts of stewardship where you give one or more of your: time, talent or treasure)

[WindeC]

Originally posted by bob
God hates you WindeC - that is your earned lot in life - a living hell. It is you that causes all your pain in life - not others.
Get a grip and go to rehab - for you that is your family church.
I suggest a close daily relationship with your minister.

Isn't that the advice that your hick neighbors give you;)

[Morning Calm]

Originally posted by mbossman2
Confirmation is the sacrament that brings you into the Church as an adult and you are given 7 "gifts":

wisdom
understanding
the spirit of right judgment
the spirit of courage
the spirit of knowledge
the spirit of reverence
the spirit of wonder and awe in Your presence.


It is also the reaffirmation and deepening of your Baptismal gifts.

Many diocese require that candidates for Confirmation spend 2 years or so in (part time) service of the Church (acts of stewardship where you give one or more of your: time, talent or treasure)

What orthodox are you mbossman?

[mbossman2]

RC and taught by Jesuits

[Morning Calm]

what?

[WJWheels]

Are you completely dense? mbossman plainly answered "Roman Catholic and taught by Jesuit priests". http://www.jesuit.org/

[mbossman2]

RC = roman catholic

Taught by priests from the Society of jesus, who generally are not only amongst the most educated but also the most worldly of priests.

[WindeC]

And also have a fantastic history, absoulutely, the courage they had. Totally amazing.

[Morning Calm]

Originally posted by WJWheels
Are you completely dense? mbossman plainly answered "Roman Catholic and taught by Jesuit priests". http://www.jesuit.org/

I love coming to a new forum and seeing veteran l33tness knowledge that throw stabs into posts with poor spelling, grammar, or fuck with people who ask simple questions. It's really great for the health of the forum and encourages new posters to stay don't you think?

If there is something I don't know, I'm going to ask what it is. Rather than pretend you know what everyone is talking about and being a poser.

So turn around, get back under the alter, and get back to your holy cleansing of the priets cock.

[WindeC]

Originally posted by Morning Calm
I love coming to a new forum and seeing veteran l33tness knowledge that throw stabs into posts with poor spelling, grammar, or fuck with people who ask simple questions. It's really great for the health of the forum and encourages new posters to stay don't you think?

If there is something I don't know, I'm going to ask what it is. Rather than pretend you know what everyone is talking about and being a poser.

So turn around, get back under the alter, and get back to your holy cleansing of the priets cock.

Ah, I see someone was madly scratching their skin this morning;)

[Morning Calm]

Are the Catholics and the Lutherans the only ones that believe in the trinity?

[mbossman2]

no, the majority of the christian faith beleive in the Trinity.

[Morning Calm]

for example?

[mbossman2]

Anglican, Episcopalian, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox...you got a few days?

[Morning Calm]

Never heard of those. What are some other main stream ones?

[mbossman2]

Anglican = Church of England
Episcopalian = off shoot of the Church of England
Greek Orthodox = practiced by many greeks and near and middle eastern christians.
Armenian Orthodox = centered in Turkey

If those aren't big enough, how about baptists? Mormons?