Can we ever get rid of Clinton?

[mairving]

Man, ever since Clinton has left office, he has constantly in the news. Of course, it is for the same type of things from before, his scandalous behavior. Here are some of his legacies:
<UL>
<LI>Clinton pardons Democratic investor Rich. Not conflict of interest there just because his wife is a major investor in the Democratic party.
<LI>Clinton shows disrespect for the office by giving one too many speeches on Inauguration day.
<LI>Clinton's people thrash White House.
<LI>Clinton takes about $200,000 worth of White House goods.
<LI>Clinton donors object to goods being taken.
<LI>Clinton offers to pay for damage to White House & for stolen goods.
<LI>Clinton spends $650,000 for office rent.
<LI>Clinton offers to reimburse taxpayers for office rent ... with funds collected for his library.
</UL>
Will it never end? I am sure there will be several more scandals in the next month or so. There is only one word that truly describes Clinton:
<Blockquote>Main Entry: amor·al
Pronunciation: (")A-'mor-&l, (")a-, -'mär-
Function: adjective
Date: 1882
1 a : being neither moral nor immoral; specifically : lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply <science as such is completely amoral -- W. S. Thompson> b : lacking moral sensibility (infants are amoral)

[bob]

It's hard for some to seperate love from hate. ;)

[mairving]

You are right, Bob. But I certainly don't hold that against Bill.

[jessho]

http://www.drudgereport.com/

There are some interesting articles in the Drudge Report today about the pardons.

I was talking to a man on the jobsite in the early '90's about Bill Clinton. He hated the man. According to him, the rapist that raped his sister was pardoned by Clinton when he was governor of Arkansas.

[jessho]

"...He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare, and he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere..."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

http://www.drudgereport.com/

More woes for the Clintons.

[politics_city]

^.^

I for one simply wish the man would remember that he's not the president anymore! I mean, the liberals' big take on his buying up an entire floor of an office building is that it's an easy commute on the way to the centers of world power so that he can be a globe-hopping problem solver.

Hey, does anyone think that countries of the world want Bill Clinton on their side of the world? I know it's bad form to wish an airplane crash on the guy, but maybe some extreme turbulence...you know...he whacks his head on the roof and gets amnesia and decides to become totally selfless.

Ah well..we can dream, can't we... Although some people out there would be dreaming of the airplane taking a 7000 foot nose-dive into the ocean...bad people...bad... ::smacks hands::

John Brengman

http://www.geocities.com/politics_city/

[bob]

Now the right-wingers will need to go to Harlem to pester him.

Bet they will think twice before they picket the building.

[politics_city]

^.^

I can see the headline now... "Mob Mobbed by Mobs"

John Brengman

http://www.geocities.com/politics_city/

[Wonk]

What about George HW Bush's legacy?

Pardons five members of cabinet about to be investigated or tried for their complicity in Iran-Contra.

Sold weapons to our sworn enemy, Iran.

Takes $120,000 worth of White House goods upon his departure.

Spends taxpayer money for office rent as well.

Leaves office with $4.5 trillion in debt, and an annual spending deficit of about $300 billion, with no end in sight.

?????

[drisley]

Takes $120,000 worth of White House goods upon his departure.

He reported them. Hillary, for example, didn't report anything to the gift office.

Spends taxpayer money for office rent as well.

Clinton wanted $800K!!!

Leaves office with $4.5 trillion in debt, and an annual spending deficit of about $300 billion, with no end in sight.

He and Reagan also got us out of the Cold War. Obviously with a constant threat of nuclear war, you'd be pumping bucks into the military too. This is another example of the Liberals revising history again.

Welcome the pit, Wonk! myuaaahahahaha =)
BTW, guys, Wonk here contributes articles to the main forumclick site, too, so check them out!

[Wonk]

By the "not reporting them", I assume you're referring to Dick Morris's claim as your proof of this?

I would invite you to read this:

http://www.salon.com/politics/fix/2001/02/12/political_fix/index.html

In short, Morris didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

So, tell me, how does Bush's and Reagan's offices cost taxpayers each year? I'm sure Reagan gets a whole lot of useful thinking and work done in his these days....

[bob]

Conserative thought is a philosophy that requires no fuel. Since nothing changes in their minds there is no need to update. Quite efficient one must admit.

[drisley]

I wouldn't use Dick Morris as a source. He knows quite a bit about how the Clintons operate, as he worked for them for awhile, but, come on, we know he doesn't speak with them at all now, so how could he know anything about what they did behind the scenes on their way out the door?

[Wonk]

OK then, what's your proof about Hillary not reporting gifts? As far as I know, Morris is the only source of this accusation, and Conason seems to have found the holes in his accusations.

[drisley]

To teel you the truth, Wonk, I forgot. I've been off and on reading many different sources, both online and in print, and developing my own overall picture of what happened. So, where I got that from, who knows. But, it wasn't Morris, as I didn't read his article.

[Wonk]

I'm sure if you "research" your "feelings," you'll find that Morris is the end source. I know it is hard to tell when Bill O'Reily repeats Sean Hannity, who is just repeating what Ann Coulter said, who is just recalling what she heard from Tony Snow, who got it from Novak, who heard it from Wolf Blitzer, who saw it on Beltway Boys, who heard it on Tim Russert, who got it from Chris Matthews, who heard it on Rush Limbaugh, who got it from an attack fax from the RNC.

(liberal media bias my ass...)

Quiz Time: Who said "if you repeat a lie enough times, you can make it truth" ??? Can anyone in the class answer that? It is, after all, the media strategy of the GOP... coordination of assault by the attack fax.

Did you read the Salon article?

[drisley]

Wow, Wonk, you have a lot of hostility for the GOP. Did they steal your lollipop as a kid? =)

The DNC is a master of attack faxes, so lets be "fair and balanced". Ever noticed how all Democrats on the nightly news use the same adjectives to describes the "evil" GOP ways?

Politics is a dirty-ass game. The art of attack faxes was invented by the DNC, so quite frankly, as much as I hate this style of politics, I kinda like the RNC taking the ropes and playing the DNC at its own game.

It sucks, but its fun to watch.

[Edited by drisley on 02-15-2001 at 01:29 PM]

[Wonk]

No, I just have hostility towards hypocrites.

What democrats use the same adjectives? I don't recall any Democrats being caught with a list of perjorative terms "to use to describe your opponents" like Newt Gingrich was. Perhaps you could tell me what Democrats were seen with such a list.

<< The art of attack faxes was invented by the DNC >>>

Did you make this up?

[drisley]

No, I just have hostility towards hypocrites.

Ok, but to me, you seem to be the hypocrite, so I guess we're back to square one, huh.

Listen, dude, we're falling into the same trap here that I abhore when I see it on the news. The Liberal goes into full-out attack mode, the Conservative is then forced to go into full-out attack mode in response. I think its childish politics, and I don't think you and I should go into it here. Lets end the my guy vs. your guy shit and talk some issues here. Deal?

[Wonk]

Horseshit. Which side launched the attack in this thread, and who responded with a comment that it such an attack was hypocritical? Look at the thread!

Someone attacked Clinton for gifts, office space, etc. I pointed out that Bush took gifts (I forgot to mention Reagan's $2,000,000 house... sorry about that oversight), Bush sticks taxpayers with his office rent, and so on, but you never heard it made such a big deal of in 1989 and 1993.

So, your "opinion" that the liberal attacks and the poor little conservative is forced to respond is
total
complete
increadible
HORSESHIT.

<<Lets end the my guy vs. your guy shit and talk some issues here. Deal? >>

(1) Your side (mairving) started the "your guy" thing.

(2) I'm happy to talk about issues. Actually, I find it amazing that conservatives still have to talk about Clinton. If they had real issues to talk about, they'd be happy to shut up about him.

OK, here's a real issue- the tax cut. I argue that why should our tax cut be limited only to INCOME taxes. If Bush says "those that pay the tax should get the tax cut," then we should cut the regressive payroll taxes as well.

Isn't that fair?

[drisley]

Heheh....ok, lets end this nonsense. Fine, tax cut. Lets start a new thread over it. This one is getting huge.

[jessho]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA8VAAW9JC.html

The plot thickens.

[Wonk]

So, why aren't you calling for an investigation to find out if any of those 16 civilians on the SSN Greenville were Bush /Cheney campaign contributers? We know already that the two at the steering wheel were oil and gas CEOs. It seems logical to suspect that they got their submarine ride in exchange for campaign contributions.

And, I should point out, that at least the White House coffees and the Licoln Bedroom never *killed* anyone.

- onk

[drisley]

Wonk, I think your dislike of Bush is causing you to jump to some seriously misguided conclusions. Doesn't it seem dumb to assume that the Bush team, 3 weeks into an administration, is gonna start selling seats on a goddamn submarine?! Besdies, I thought it was pretty well known that these "contributors" were contrubitors to some sub restoration or museum of something.

For what its worth, I saw this coming. This style of dirty politics is getting so predictable. I know that, given a few days, SOMEONE would try to pin this on Bush. This is gonna be some four years (hopefully eight). =)

[mairving]

I don't know how many times I have heard a liberals view of a conservative. According to liberals, conservatives are all mindless idiots whose only thoughts were handed to them by Rush Limbaugh et al. I really get tired of that garbage. It is all part of the elitism that goes with being liberal. Liberals tend to think that they are part of some unique club. That only they can take care of the poor and stand up for the common man. Of course, the way this is done is by taking all of their money and others and supporting programs that only serve to keep the poor poor. To me, taking care of the poor is a personal thing. I can give $100 to a poor person and try to help him out of a jam. Or I can take my $100 and give it to the government, and after it is filtered through all of their programs, they will be lucky to get $20. This is the same principle for most of their bloatware.

Oh well, I do need to go. Rush is coming on the radio and I have to get my daily brainwashing.

[Wonk]

<< Wonk, I think your dislike of Bush is causing you to jump to some seriously misguided conclusions.>>

Like those involving the pardon of Mr. Rich? If I'm going to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, shouldn't the same courtesy extend to Clinton?

<< Doesn't it seem dumb to assume that the Bush team, 3 weeks into an administration, is gonna start selling seats on a goddamn submarine?! >>

Oh no, I think they were sold months ago. Again, WHY in the HELL would oil & gas industry officials be on a nuclear submarine? There can be no other reason.

<< these "contributors" were contrubitors to some sub restoration or museum>>

I can't find any evidence of that on the news services... where did this come from? Did Hannity make that up?

<< This style of dirty politics is getting so predictable. I know that, given a few days, SOMEONE would try to pin this on Bush.>>

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Clinton was under attack from day one, and everything was suspect. Bush should be under the same microscope. If he's innnocent, he has nothing to fear, right? Why shouldn't we investigate this? Why don't you agree that it should be investigated?

What's funny is that commentators on Fox didn't know what to say about the civilians on board the submarine, because no one knew for a few days if they were Republicans or Democrats! Oh, we can't have an opinion on whether it was good or bad, because we don't know what party they were from! LOL!!!! What a joke!



<< To me, taking care of the poor is a personal thing. I can give $100 to a
poor person and try to help him out of a jam. >>

Oh yeah, I'm sure you want poor people knocking on your door all day, explaining their problems to you, and how they need $100 for gas to get to their new construction job in Kentucky. What's your address? Mid if I publish it on the web, so these poor souls can find your help?

[mairving]

I don't have them knocking at my door. My wife works at a women's shelter. I can always tell them I gave at the office. I show discretion to giving. Giving a guy some money so he can buy a bottle doesn't help him. Giving money to someone in true need is the key. If the price that I paid was having someone knock at my door that would be worth it. No, you don't have to give out my number. I prefer, at least on the Internet, to help those that are poor in mind and liberal arguments. Might I give you a handout, Wonk?

[Wonk]

LOL!! Good one. :)

[drisley]

There's a huge difference here, Wonk. Clinton had a track record before he even got in office. It seems a little childish to assume the Republican party made up every single scandal of the Clinton years. And, I think you're forgetting that "those evil right-wingers" are not the only ones calling for an investigation into the pardons, but also your own friendly Democrats. Here's the difference:

Clinton was the king of politics and fund-raising. the DNc saw cha-ching whenever they saw Clinton. Now, he has nothing to offer, IMHO. So, you're finding many Dems come out in "outrage" over these pardons and donations to the library.

This stuff is trivial compared to the other scandals, but its better late then never I guess. Besides, it won't take the right wing to do in Clinton. He's doing a mighty fine job of that all by himself lately.

I'm not predicting any investigation into a possible Bush-submarine wreck link because it is completely off the wall and anyone who's mildly sensible knows it. Its only a few, widely scattered left-wing extremists who are gonna get all loud about it.

You ask why I go after Clinton on the pardons and not after Bush. Well, because there's strong evidence on the Clinton case. Not enough to say enough necessarily illegal happened (thats what the criminal invesitgation will find out) but certainly enough to make it smell like ass.

[Wonk]

And Bush has a track record, too, in Texas- Funeralgate, and the Texas Rangers. When raising funds for his 2000 campaign, contributers were asked to put their industry code on their checks so they would be "credited for their contributions." Doesn't that disguest you?

Again, I ask you- why ELSE would an oil/gas industry CEO be aboard a submarine????? I've only asked this question a half-dozen times.

[mairving]

Oh yeah, let me see, if you donate to Bush's campaign, you get to ride in a submarine. A submarine is not a luxury liner. It is a windowless box. If I contributed to Bush, I would at least like a ride on an aircraft carrier maybe. Plus they have found out that not one of the people aboard the submarine when it had it's 'accident' was a contributor to Bush.

All these things that you say about Bush have one thing in common, they are not factual. The press would have loved for a Bush donor to be on that sub but there was none. The other things that you mention have been gone over with a fine tooth comb. The only thing that they could get Bush on was a 20yr old DUI. Oh well, I guess that they can always try to cover up Clinton's messes. Unfortunately for Bill, they don't have a rug large enough to sweep it under.

[drisley]

I think there are a lot of leftists out there who have it as their primary poltical mission to ruin George W. Bush. They're gonna find it frustrating that there isn't much to bitch about on this man. Believe me, after Clinton and the various escapades surrounding his impeachment, Bush knows full well that he needs to stay squeaky clean.

[Wonk]

If he's so squeaky clean, then why the opposition to investigation.

And I still ask- WHY would an oil/gas industry official be on a submarine??? And you can't argue that a ride on a nuclear sub would not appeal to people.. I'd enjoy a ride.

[bob]

Are you willing to donate to the DNC to get a ride.

[drisley]

Originally posted by Wonk
If he's so squeaky clean, then why the opposition to investigation.

Who's opposing it? Me? I oppose it because its frickin idiotic. I don't see anyone except for you railing about it. I don't see anyone in official position even bringing it up. Go figure.

And what makes you think that in this large world that the ONLY POSSILBE thing that an oil/gas guy might be interested in is donating to Bush? Maybe he would donate to someone or something not connected to Bush. Is the guy automatically evil because he works for the oil industry? If its that bad, stop driving.

[Wonk]

So why is investigating Bush "idiotic," but investigating the irreversable pardon by the now-ex-president a must?

Do you realize how absurd you sound?

Either wrongdoing is wrongdoing, or it's not. It doesn't matter whether they have a "D" or an "R" after their name.

[drisley]

No. Quite frankly, I find it absurd that your hate for GWB is so strong that you refuse to see my point. I thought I laid it out quite succinctly, so if you still don't understand, oh well.

[mairving]

An investigation is warranted when evidence of wrongdoing is presented. I have not seen nor have a heard any evidence of Bush's crimes. If there is evidence against him, please present it to us so that we may call for an investigation. I really don't think that you will find anything. The press, Dems & Larry Flynt have looked hard and still nothing.

[Wonk]

I don't know why you've repeatedly accused me of hating GWB. I don't hate him. I think he's an idiot and a puppet. I think he's guilty of various ethical violations as gov. of Texas, and I think he would do anything to be president (which he's not). But I don't hate him at all. I wouldn't mind splitting a pitcher of beer with him.

(can you give me an example of this "hate"???)

[drisley]

Heheh.....

That's an age-old debating trick: parse the other's words until you get them parsing their own words and eventually they blunder because you get them all worried about what they're saying. I'm not biting. It just leads to long, utterly pointless debates about English.

Let's start some more issue threads....

[bob]

Wonk. it is always a trick when you win. ;)

[Wonk]

Parsing words? I thought words mean things.... You said I hated Bush. I simply replied to your accusation that, while I think Bush is an idiot, I have no personal hatred. I asked you for examples, and you give me none. So, then- are you man enough to admit that your statement was incorrect??

Back onto the Submarine Coffee Killers- the story we are hearing more about every day (now it seems that the crew *was* distracted!). You said there was no evidence that anyone on board was a contributor?

Read it and weep- thanks to www.opensecrets.org:

HELEN CULLEN

The Cullen Family owns Quintana Petroleum, Houston, TX. According to
http://www.opensecrets.org, they are contributors to both GW Bush and the GOP:

CULLEN, ROY H
HOUSTON, TX 77002
QUINTANA PETROLEUM 07/21/2000 $10,000 Republican National
Cmte

CULLEN, ROY H
HOUSTON, TX 77002
INVESTMENTS 04/14/1999 $1,000 Bush, George W

CULLEN, ROY H
HOUSTON, TX 77002
QUINTANA PETROLEUM 07/30/1999 $10,000 Republican National
Cmte

CULLEN, ROY H MRS.
HOUSTON, TX 77002
QUINTANA PETROLEUM 07/21/2000 $10,000 Republican National
Cmte

CULLEN, ROY H MRS.
HOUSTON, TX 77002
QUINTANA PETROLEUM 07/30/1999 $10,000 Republican National
Cmte

#6: JOHN M. HALL
SEALY, TEXAS

#7: LEIGH ANNE SCHNELL HALL
SEALY, TEXAS

Todd Thoman and John Hall (who was the guy at the buoyancy levers when the sub did its disastrous emergency
surface drill) are both employed by Fossil Bay, an oil company based in Dallas,
Texas. They were on the sub because of the contributions they made to the USS
Missouri restoration foundation...

...whose 'honorary chair' just happens to be George Herbert Walker Bush.


-- it's nice to have the facts on your side. Guess you wouldn't know that feeling, since all I hear is rhetoric ---

[drisley]

I call it like I see it, Wonk. When I draw a conslusion on something, I don't lean it toward a political ideology or whom I want to defend and whom I want to slam. You seem to do just that. You have made wild stretches in order to blame GWB of something. My viewpoint (political ideology aside) is to let the evidence come out and if it warrants an investigation, you can be sure they'll be one. If we see this come out in the news and it indeed looks bad, I'll be the first to say GWB did something wrong if he did. But, I've seen you make the assumption that because their oil/gas guys, they're automatically Bush contributors. I've seen you assume that the seats on the sub were SOLD to them just because they're oil/gas guys. Its a huge stretch. That's all I'm saying.

If you turned even a fraction of your "investigations" onto Clinton, then you might command a little more respect because then at least you're thinking. But, to turn the other cheek on that and then try to conjure something up on Bush, that's just nasty politics, something that I believe is back-firing miserably on the DNC as we speak.

[bob]

How do you link Helen Cullen to Quintana


Quintana does seem to have a history of buying judges


http://www.onr.com/tpj/reports/payola/app1.html

[mairving]

Boy that is a stretch. No wonder you have been gone for awhile, Wonk. You had a lot of research to do. So here is what you do. You find someone who has the same name and try to associate that to a minor Bush contributor. It just don't fly. Again I state the obvious, if Bush was guilty of wrongdoing in this sub case, the liberal press would have already skewered him.

[drisley]

Exactly.

[Wonk]

I love how you guys ignore facts. You can find "Helen and Roy Cullen" together in the phone book, using the same address used for their contributions.

Go ahead, close your eyes if you want. I can't stop you from ignoring the truth with it's in your face. But you guys really look like idiots when you do.

I mean, 'cmon! Maybe there was another "Bill Clinton" who met Paula Jones. Maybe some guy just CLAIMED he was Bill Clinton, and she couldn't tell the difference in a dark room. Is that a realistic defense?

[mairving]

I am perfectly willing to look at the facts. The problem is I have seen next-to-none facts presented. Even if as you say, Cullen was a contributor, he is still a minor contributor. Even if it is true, a big even, what difference does it make. Did Bush order Helen Cullen to take controls of that submarine so that we could teach the Japanese a lesson? What is the point? Even with Bush driving the sub, where is the big conspiracy? It is lunacy comparing Bush's involvement in this disaster to some of the human castrophies that Bill Clinton has caused.

[drisley]

Yeah, I mean, I've seen your facts presented, but they're just facts. They don't point to any wrong-doing. It doesn't even smell of that famous "appearance of impropriety". Only to you, Wonk.

I think you're letting your bias get the best of you, man. Of all the threads in this forum, the only two you'll bother to respond to is about Fox smashing and Bush smashing. What am I to think?

[jessho]

Bob and Wonk,

All politics aside, you have crossed the line by posting names and addresses on this site. I think you need to edit your posts. If you want to link to sites, I would consider that appropriate. Posting, as you both have done in the context of this discussion, is slanderous.

[drisley]

Hey Bob,

There are privacy issues at stake with posting names AND addresses, so the post was removed.

[bob]

Let's burn all the phone books to protect privacy.

[mairving]

The names are public record. They are all visible <a href="http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0102/submarine.names/frameset.exclude.html" target="_blank">here</a> on CNN. I can't see the big deal on that.

[drisley]

Hey mairving,

The names and basic locale is fine. Wonk posted that, and thats OK. Bob posted two names, addresses, and all but a few digits of a complete phone number. I'm sure you wouldn't like your info posted on here, nor would they.

[mairving]

Man I was gone for a little while and I missed all the fun. Here I will post my home phone number:
555-2461.

[Wonk]

I can see editing the post to obscure the phone number, but don't delete the content. I have no idea what Bob said.

It's irrelevant, because these names are a matter of public record. The issue is that Bush rewarded campaign contributers with rides on a LA Class nuclear sub whose operational expenses *I* as a taxpayer are forced to support. And *I* as a taxpayer will be asked to shoulder the burden of the investigations, repair of the sub, and paying damages to the nine families of those killed by this grossly negligent act.

Goddamn it, the Lincoln Bedroom is a drop in the bucket compared to this shit. But oh, no, there's no media outrage here for some strange reason. What gives?

Again, I say- liberal media bias my ass.

[drisley]

For the fourth time now, the reason there's no hubub about it is because there is no shady link to Bush. The fact that they were contributors DOES NOT mean the seats were sold. Do you not think that, of all the reporters out there who despise Bush, that one or more of them would have found something if it were there and lambasted the airwaves with it?

Obviously you'll never get it, so lets move on.

[bob]

I will use #### next time

Just have to post this 18213 ;)

[drisley]

Just don't post addresses or phone numbers to private people in the forum.

And, BTW, I've moved. Good one, Bob.

[mairving]

Wonk, we are still waiting for your proof. There is more proof that Drisley is Bob than Bush commited a crime here.

[bob]

Risley, Hope that was not a password too ;)

mairving, that sounds like something a Snark would say. :)

[Wonk]

I'm confused- what proof were you looking for? I gave you names, and the web reference where you can look up their contributions yourself. Are you asking for proof that they received the sub ride in exchange for contributions? Again, I ask- why else would an oil & gas person be aboard a nuclear sub?

C'mon, you guys have gone after Clinton on thinner evidence than this- FileGate, FosterGate, HaircutGate, AirForceOne-Gate- all of which turned out to be crap.

[drisley]

Originally posted by Wonk
Again, I ask- why else would an oil & gas person be aboard a nuclear sub?

And there you have my problem with your evidence, Wonk. Just because they're oil/gas, you're assuming they're connected to Bush AND that Bush sold them seats. C'mon. Oil/gas is not some big clique thats conspires against the little people, Wonk. They just happen to work in the industry. An industry YOU benefit from every single day.

To Democrats: stop being vindictive about us going after Clinton. The man was corrupt, no doubt about it. Hugely so. The second you guys denounce him and move on, you'll start your path out of the trap you're digging for yourself politically right now.

[Wonk]

Again, and again, and again, I ask- why else would an oil & gas person be aboard a nuclear sub?

Why?

<< you're assuming they're connected to Bush AND that Bush sold them seats. >>

That's right, because there isn't any other reason to be there. Remember the Sherlock Holmes method-
eliminate all of the impossible, and whatever is left- that's what you're looking for.

<<Oil/gas is not some big clique thats conspires against the little people, Wonk.>>

When did I ever say it was? But you can't deny that the industry strongly lobbies government to change laws in a way that favors them.

<< stop being vindictive about us going after Clinton.>>

Who'se being vindictive? Applying the same standards to Bush is simply FAIR. If we were making things up, THAT would be vindictive. We have facts before us, and we simply want the TRUTH as to why those specific people were chosen to pilot a TAXPAYER OWNED submarine and kill people with it.

[mairving]

Wonk, you have progressed. First these people were just on the sub. Now to quote you, they are running the sub. <b> "pilot a TAXPAYER OWNED submarine and kill people with it."</b> Some early reports that they were actually piloting the boat have been discounted. Now they are saying that it would be next to impossible to fit sixteen people in one place on the sub. The mess hall only holds five people at a time.

I guess next that we can assume that Bush put them on the sub specifically to teach the Japanese a lesson. It was an accident. Arguably, one that could easily have been permitted. This conspiracy only exists in you mind and is blinded by your dislike of Bush.

It is also amazing that someone would make such a big deal off of this trivia while at the same time defending Clinton for Pardongate.

[Wonk]

<< "pilot a TAXPAYER OWNED submarine >>

Who pulled the lever that filled the tanks with HP air?

<< and kill people with it.">>

Are there not nine people missing and presumed drowned?


<< fit sixteen people in one place on the sub.>>

OK, so all sixteen weren't piloting the sub, I concede that. I think only two were.

<< I guess next that we can assume that Bush put them on the sub specifically to teach the Japanese a lesson. It was an accident.>>

Gee, where did you get THAT? Oh, I'm sorry, you were just setting up a straw man to knock down. Sorry, I didn't see that. Carry on.

<< It is also amazing that someone would make such a big deal off of this trivia while at the same time defending Clinton for Pardongate. >>

And it's amazing that someone could ignore this totally while at the same time attacking Clinton for Pardongate.

[mairving]

Wonk, the funniest part of your little speech is that <b>you were just setting up a straw man to knock down</b>. That part is too funny.

Still the only part that is missing to your little theory is the slightest scrap of evidence.

Here are the facts in case you forgot:
<UL>
<LI>Submarine crashes into fishing boat killing 9 people.
<LI>The civilians did not have their hands on any controls when it surfaced.
<LI>Bush's campaign may or may not have received money from Mrs. Cullen.
<LI>There is no connection with any of these people to Bush other than they are from Texas. Texas is quite a big state. I am pretty sure that not everyone knows one another.
<LI>None of the national news has reported on any connections to Bush, even the most liberal ones.
<LI>The only connection given to Bush is that there was a possible donor on board.
</UL>
I am prepared to be outraged but I mean good grief even the Democrat attack dogs haven't found anything on this one. The one thing that you have been asked to produce is proof. I have not seen any.

[drisley]

Let it go, guys. It won't get anywhere, and you'll never see this anywhere else except this forum. So, let's knock it off and start talking about things that matter....

[mairving]

Yep, let us find something other to argue. By the way, I noticed that in the bottom right had corner, there are admin options showing. Have they always been there? I haven't noticed them before. I clicked on them and they said that I had no access, which is what I thought. Just curious though.

[drisley]

YEah, its always there, but it can only be used by moderators or admins.

[bob]

The option is open to all donators.

[Wonk]

1. Donors *were* at the controls (they admitted to pulling the lever).

2. Ignoring Cullen, we have other direct Bush contributors in the list.

3. We're getting new details that the contributors WERE distracting the crew and directly caused the accident.

But the conservative press is ignoring this one.

[drisley]

Wonk, I thought you were into facts, man. Because thats a bunch of bullshit. If you're following the trial at all, they made it clear and conclusive that many factors caused the collision, only one of which was the distraction of the civilians. I've checked CNN, CBS, MSNBC, they all back this up, so get off your high-horse on the so-called "conservative press". They have also testified that the "pulling the lever" had nothing to do with the crash. Its not like they had control of the damn sub, they just pull the lever when the captain says to pull it.

You're chasing Liberal rainbows. Come back to the real world. We'll be waiting.

[Wonk]

OK, then, given the facts at the inquiry board (which is NOT a trial, by the way- not even close, which you'd know if you knew anything about the UCMJ), you'd still have to agree with the fact that had the civilians NOT been aboard and on the bridge during what everyone agrees is a dangerous maneuver, the accident would not have happened. The Navy does 200+ of these drills a year without incident. Cram 16 civilians into the operations center, and lots of mistakes happen.

Given that, why were they aboard in the first place? Again, oil & gas people have nothing to do with nuclear powered-submarines, but they have everything to do with Bush administration energy policy (or lack thereof).

[drisley]

You're beating a dead horse. Go out, get laid. Take your mind of Bush for awhile.

[Wonk]

So why, when it was Clinton, were we not "beating a dead horse" and we did not need to "give it a rest for a while." We have a potential crime here- how can you avert your eyes???

[drisley]

Okay, let me re-phrase for the Liberal:

IN THIS FORUM, you are beating a dead horse. Time and time again, you have posted something in here and made an off-the-wall attempt to link it to some "crime" of Bush's. Its ridiculous. This is a "potential crime" in your eyes only and you seem to be on your own in trying to convince the world that Bush somehow is to blame.

THUS, you're beating a dead horse. since no other Liberal seems to be all over this like you are, get them all to come to this forum and get pumped up about how bad the Bushie is. I could use the extra traffic to the site. =)

[bob]

The Sub problem is big. The whole trip was to please the civilians and to keep schedule. There was no training mission scheduled...the trip was a free joy ride. It was rushed too. Who were so important that a sub commander would rush to make a schedule.

[drisley]

I agree, bob. It was a huge damn mess. But, trying to find some cockeyed connection to Bush causing it is stupid, you must admit. The blame lies with the navy and sloppiness. Of course the presense of the civilians played a part, I don't think that's in question. The question raised by Wonk is did Bush put those people on the sub in order to pay them back for contributions. The obvious answer is hell no. It would have been known a long time ago if that were the case.