The Religious vs. The Atheists and Agnostics: Abortion

[RightElephant]

Where does the emphasis on 'moral' come from in the debates on abortion? Aside from legal backfire, political backfire, legal issues, and political issues attatched to the debate of abortion, IS ABORTION MORAL? Forget if the government should be moral, if the laws should be moral. Forget separation of Church and State. Pretend you don't live in a country. ARE ABORTIONS MORAL? Why? What makes it moral or not? .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................

[drisley]

There is a lot of misunderstanding in the world about religion, a lot of failed attempts at religion as well that make a lot of people throw up their hands in disgust at the whole thing. To people like this, it is easier to just live their lives and not give any thought to religion or morality, other than what their gut tells them is right or wrong. For a lot of these people, the word "moral" is automatically part and parcel of religion. Its a misunderstanding, if you ask me.

An even worse misunderstanding is that the field of religion is often mistakenly equated to one religion: Christianity. So, you have an issue like abortion where the word "moral" is being thrown around, and aethiest pro-choice'ers are out there yelling you're trying to impose a religious police state and shove the Christian concept of God down there throat.

The idea that abortion is an issue between primarily Christians and aehtiests, the religious and the aethiests, is a false one. I think people like Bob are only saying that out of ignorance and a personal hatred for religion. He even uses that religious crap in political argument regarding the right - just makes no sense.

As for abortions beign moral, you know my stance on that one.

[Quartzhunter]

I hate the scoll to the side thing while I read...I get all tangled up in my keyboard....can we fix this???

Morals are Morals and religion is religion and state is state....

I have morals just because I believe in the right to choose AND (:O...oh no THE DEATH PENALTY) doesn't mean I don't have MORALS...

We are just gonna start the "Lumping shit togeather" which I thought was one of the ORIGINAL SINS, or was it another Quartz who got her ass chewed out on more than one occasion ( oooh I am to mad to spell) here in happy formum land for that very offense?!!

AND....RE

Let us first hear your take on MORALS that wil give me more to work with....hehehe

[Quartzhunter]

and I am going to go get expresso AND a pack of smokes as I can see this is gonna be a longie....

[bob]

For elephant the answer is no. For the woman that is pregnant and decides on abortion, then the answer is yes.

Some people learn morals while others discover them as they learn. That is also a difference between the religious and the non-religious.

[drisley]

Pure moral relativisism at its finest, I see.

[Sauron]

When a child is born, and he/she is killed, it is called murder.

When the child is in the womb, it is called abortion.

A child is a child from the moment of conception. It is called murder. Final. And I am not saying it from religious dogma. I am saying it as a human being.

[bob]

Originally posted by drisley
Pure moral relativisism at its finest, I see.

Thanks dave. ;) If it did not exist there would be nothing but wars between each group that believed they had the correct moral position.


Hey Sharon, would that be murder 1 - Premeditated and the woman therefore eligible for the death penalty?

Calling it murder (a legal term) and then saying it is not religious dogma, just gets you a membership in the elephant club. :)

[Sauron]

I'd like to say: Bob is not here, does not exist. No one calls me Sharon...

B. A friend who is one of the mods told me to say I was not following any religious dogma, which I am not.

C. Any of you have any idea how abortion happens? How they kill the child? Let me describe it : The child is generally forced prematurely from the womb. The back of the neck of the child is then opened, the docters then proceed to put a vaccum up it, and they suck the brains out through the vaccum. You still want to say thats not murder?

[Sauron]

I consider abortion murder, I also consider a woman that knows what is going to happen, a murderess. It is just as bad as when a mother drowns her 3 kids, or shoots them, or throws her baby against the wall. IT IS ALL THE SAME. IT IS CALLED MURDER. THE TAKING AWAY OF A LIFE. And remember most Christian chuches hem and haw about that now. I must not be parroting something I heard from them, but then, I don't parrot anyone, unless I am quoting, because theres sure little to say about any church. Of course, worse can be said of the athiests.

[Quartzhunter]

Suron are you sure the year is 2002 AND you REALLY live in the United States...and its not a fucking brain sucking machine you ass, it sucks the hole thing out. YOu make it sound like its fully developed and has a hard head in there at 3rd month gestation. And Bob isn't invisibe cuz I can see him. And the Mods here are everybodys freind...intimidation...geezzz

[Quartzhunter]

oh yeah, and you don' t have to go to church for God to love you...and those who don't believe well they don't believe, it is not a requirement to life.

[Sauron]

A. I don't believe that I need to go to church to be loved by God.

B. I am living in the US, tho I wish I wasn't, well you can say this, if I was living in China, they eat aborted fetuses.

C. This is the year of Our Lord 2002

D. The body is not fully developed, but the brain is. If I had no arms, no legs, and maybe no body, but I could still think, I'd still be a human, and if I was still living, it would be murder to kill me.

[bob]

Hey Sharon, what happened to A. :)

As for B. any mod that talks to you was probably giving you some advice so you would not get your ego crushed - or as S02 says "your brains sucked out your ass"

Now C. Most abortions can fit on the head of a pin - right next to the angels. ;)

[Quartzhunter]

why don't you want to live here?

I wouldn't eat a fetus thats a little more than my cold old heart could hande (not to mention my stomach)

Glad to know you have the dates correct

I respect your view on being killed, while I cherrish the right to choose, being killed would suck.

[Quartzhunter]

;)

[Sauron]

Heh, the mod who is actually one of my friends, who told me to go to forumclick, back when TimPoet was writing about a kid who called the cops on his parents for spanking him...I would appreciate if you would cut calling me Sharon..

[bob]

Originally posted by Sauron
A. I don't believe that I need to go to church to be loved by God.

B. I am living in the US, tho I wish I wasn't, well you can say this, if I was living in China, they eat aborted fetuses.

C. This is the year of Our Lord 2002

D. The body is not fully developed, but the brain is. If I had no arms, no legs, and maybe no body, but I could still think, I'd still be a human, and if I was still living, it would be murder to kill me.

A. You do not need to go to church at all.

B. You would eat aborted fetuses if you lived in China - and love it.

C. It is 2002 years since he died.

D. An egg with a sperm in it is life for you - funny thing is I bet you never looked in a microscope to see what you define as life. Absolute belief - just like those others that picked the "wrong religion" and must suffer in hell for eternity.

[Sauron]

it is called conception, and it is immediatly murder to destroy it. I go to church because half the time it is expected of me, and I do try to be loyal to my religion. I am not Chinese, and I doubt if I was living in China that I would enjoy eating fetus'

[bob]

Egg foo young

Eat up

[Quartzhunter]

Ouch!

[Sauron]

When did I say I was Chinese? And when did I say I liked Chinese?

[bob]

I think you are being mistaken for kathaksung.

You said "/B. I am living in the US, tho I wish I wasn't, well you can say this, if I was living in China, they eat aborted fetuses. /"

Now is that a breakfast burrito or the soup?

[Sauron]

Sorry if I got you confused, because what I meant was : There are worse places then the U.S. Well Africa is still pretty bad. You get cooked whole over there...

[bob]

Originally posted by Sauron
Sorry if I got you confused, because what I meant was : There are worse places then the U.S. Well Africa is still pretty bad. You get cooked whole over there...

I did not know that you were black.

Guess they have to cook the babies to get rid of the aids virus before eating them.

Seems the US aint so bad after all...... hmmmm

[Sauron]

I am a White European, with most of my blood being German, Dutch, English and Scottish.

[drisley]

This thread turned weird.

Sauron, the abortion you referred to is a partial birth abortion, not the type that is normally done. IMO, partial birth is the worse, and I find it truly despicable that anyone would protest laws banning the procedure. The fucking piss-standing-up types at NOW protest this stuff - they protest ANYTHING that might possibly affect abortion in their eyes. I won't even go on...

[Quartzhunter]

Oh no D, Please go on the part about standing up pissing really got me thinking about my opinon on abortion, with that kind of reterick I just might go down and throw bombs at the abortion clinics.

I will tell you the truth, my very religous freind (whom I adore inspite of this) is under the cloud that ALL abortions are just that (partical type) and that misinformation comes from propaganda shoved around by the "they should be barefoot and pregent" crowd.

Those abortions should only be performed in extream medical emergency's, they are gross and the babies are fully formed and really growing. There should be a point where it isn't ok to abort, UNLESS the health of the mother is at high risk, the fetus is allready dead or has some other issue that termination of the pregnacy would be the ONLY alternitive. But that should be the desision of a Doctor not the whim of the mother to be.


The thread was weird to begin with, or nobody would have bothered with it...

[RightElephant]

Quartz wanted my take on morals. Ok, well have a little time now so why don't we begin:

First of all, let me start by saying, while I am Christian I would like to leave that out for now since there are some people with obvious bitter, hateful, and insecure/uncomfortable feelings with the Christian church. So let's just discuss innate morality and the difference between right and wrong.

When you are a child you must learn the difference between right and wrong. It is the most crucial time to learn this distinction. Unfortunately, many children do not learn this for whatever reason. In fact, in some countries some children learn that wrong is right, and they learn to kill other people in such things as sucide bombings. This is unfortunate. However, it proves that when you are young you must learn what is right and what is wrong:

moral
adj.
Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

That definition was the one I used in the other abortion thread concerned with legal issues and the ethics of a government. The definition was from dictionary.com. I don't always like their definitions but I do like this one. What I said about right and wrong applies to what I percieve as being 'moral.' Someone who has learned the right over wrong is a moral person, while one who does wrong things is immoral. Agreed on the definition of moral? Does that end the confusion on how I use the word?

Ok so now, if that is the definition of moral, then what becomes defined as right and what as wrong? To maintain consistancy I will use dictionary.com.

right
Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or morality

Notice how the definition places morality as hand in hand with law. That is just for reference. What is more important are the words justice and right. The word justice does not have to be in the legal sense. It can be taken as what actions should be right and what the consequences of contrary arguements should be in the interest of protecting what is right. The word morality is used in the definition of right, suggesting that the definition of right is similar as that of morality.

mo·ral·i·ty
1)The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2)A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality
3)Virtuous conduct.
4)A rule or lesson in moral conduct.

This definition, being similar to that of right's, proves that right can only be defined as good conduct, virtuous conduct, etc. Therefore moral is the same as what is right. But aside from defining what is moral and what is right, where should the 'code of conduct' that teaches right and wrong come from? This is the essential question to this thread.

The legal part should come from the majority of the people's morals. Those morals should come from the values of a society. Unfortunately for America, more and more people have less and less values. It is the job of the government to protect the society, by protecting the laws this country should be based on in interest of its health and prosperity. The values of the individual come from a number of different things. Some examples of the things they come from are:

-Religous teachings, if any
-Parents
-Friends
-Society
-INNATE, NATURAL FEELING


Those things combine to create a set of values, which is the basis for what is right and what is wrong. What is right and what is wrong is concerned with what is good conduct in respect to those values. That is considered morality, which in turn determines whether or not something is moral. So, Quartz, that is my 'take on morals.'

So then abortion, is it moral. Well lets look at a few things hear. Look at where the values originate. Take my examples of:
-Religous teachings, if any
-Parents
-Friends
-Society
-INNATE, NATURAL FEELING

Use two scenarios here: The first scenario we believe that the life growing inside the mother is a human life at any time. The second scenario we believe that the life growing inside the mother is not human until some other magical time.

Scenario One:
The life inside the mother is human, therefore aborting it is killing a human life. Is killing moral? That is the question for this scenario. So let's see, examine all of the examples.

RELIGION (ignore if you don't like religion)-Most religions teach killing is wrong
PARENTS-Most parents teach their children not to kill
FRIENDS-Depends on if you have murder friends or law-abiding friends
SOCIETY-American society as a collective group views killing as wrong. In fact most societies in the world view it as wrong (I'll easily back that up after I finish)
INNATE, NATURAL FEELING-There are few murders that can kill and naturally feel good about it (of those that are proven sane).

THIS SET OF VALUES TEACH KILLING AS WRONG. HENCE, ABORTION IS WRONG IN SCENARIO ONE.


Scenario Two:
The life inside the mother is not human until one day it suddenly becomes one. The DNA is ignored and not recognized as human. Therefore aborting the baby is stopping a process of growing cells. So let's look at the examples.

RELIGION (ignore if you don't like religion)-Most religions don't take a stance on just mere cellular development
PARENTS-Most parents don't really teach their children on whether it is right or wrong to stop a cell from growing.
FRIENDS-My friends don't really talk about cells, don't know about yours.
SOCIETY-American society as a collective group kills cells in test tubes for studies all the time
INNATE, NATURAL FEELING-As a human, we don't really understand when the cells are becoming human, but since in this scenario they are JUST CELLS, we can attempt to justify it to ourselves, to comfort ourselves.

THIS SET OF VALUES DOESN'T TEACH MUCH AS THEY ARE "JUST CELLS". HENCE, ABORTION CAN BE TWISTED TO BE JUSTIFIED IN SCENARIO TWO.


A scenario two person aborts freely so justifying it to themselves, that they are only killing cells. They're not important to them. That is referred to as as self-justification. That is, telling yourself its ok for an easy comfort.

A scenario one person believes that what is growing as human, is a human. They believe that stopping those cells just because there are only a few is no different than stopping those cells from growing when there are millions. They see it as human and therefore murder.

So DON'T pick your set of values from the result and from the values themselves. Pick from the beginning of the scenario, WHAT IS LIFE. If you are bold enough to claim to understand all of human life, what no one alive can explain (we don't even know where thoughts come from in the brain), and you can define when a human is a human, then you can be scenario two person. I am a scenario one because a human is a human.

Finally, I said that I can back that societies mostly all value human life by this. A government study to determine what is moral in the world was conducted a year ago or so. The Department of State has this study. It is how the government uses words like 'evil' by using what most people view as right as right. The results showed the following:
There were three common words that arose in most societies' values, those words were:
Family
Faith
Generosity

A person who loves their family, is faithful as to how they will end out, and a person who is generous is in value of their life. Someone generous gives to others as themselves, so in valuing his/her life, he/she values others as well. Human life is valued around the globe. The only question in abortion, is what is human life? You can try your best to explain what no one else can. You can fight to define when a baby is a human. You can struggle to twist the definition of life to make your destruction of human life not killing. But I'll stick with the hard side, but moral side: Scenario One.

[Quartzhunter]

Gads RE are you sure your not related to Mr.Sung? I had to go back to the begining to remember what the hell it was we were disscussing after that windy reply.

I am confused so I am gonna try to seperate some of it into catagories...

Morals on a "lawful" standard

Morals on a "personal" standard

Morals on a "public (towards other people) standard

am I close, this is kinda what we/you were going on about?

[Sauron]

I agree with Right. I hate abortion of all types, partial is worse then full, but a child dies both ways. What I also think is sickening is the idea that parents often don't want children, so they abort them, so why the hell were they screwing around then? And why not use protection? Partial is actually starting to get popular. I don't understand how anyone human can do it. I mean, its not like sawing off somebodies leg, or cutting out parts of their guts. This is a BABY murder, they take out a BRAIN! This is not a animal folks, THIS IS WHAT WE CALL A HUMAN BEING.

[drisley]

Quartz, I think you are being propagandized by the people who throw around such sterotypes. Pro-life stance is not being promoted by people who think women should be barefoot and pregnant.

I give the NOW guys (I use that word intentionally) a hard time because they equate ALL of women's rights to the right to abort a kid. And ANYTHING they think even slightly hampers the ability to do an abortion under any circumstances, they oppose. The oppose notifying the parents of minors. They oppose any ban on partial birth abortion, under any circumstances. Even the most common sense things, they oppose it. And being that a lot of them are self-righteous feminist lesbians who blame men for all their problems, they are ripe for ridicule in my eyes. :)

[WJWheels]

In order to truly believe in "the right to choose", you have to believe / accept that the fetus is NEVER a new life but merely a part of the mother. This is what the law is based on.... that a women has total rights over her body.

[Sauron]

When conception happens, a new life is begun. The child is bone of his mothers bone, flesh of her flesh, but it is still a new life. And she has no right to destroy it.

[RightElephant]

That is the problem I am getting at here: determining when a life is a life. AKA-When, if ever, is it moral to kill it. Don't think in the legal sense, that is the other thread. This one came from Bob's challenge to debate morality.

But let me ask a question:
Quartz, Bob, and all you women's right to killers out there. Wait sorry, all you pro-choicers out there:

When, EXACTLY, does a developing baby become a 'human?' What stage? What are the growth requirements (a number of cells? brain development? what...)

Please give me a simple CLEAR answer because you have so far failed to explain when a life is a life. Wow, doesn't that just sound like a HUGE oxymoron: when is a life a 'life?' LOL, wow!

[bob]

If we found alien sperm in a cute rock crevice on Mars we would call it life. Would we count chromosomes? If it had 46 like us we would understand. If 48 like Bush (chimp) we may still like him.
But what if it was found they only had 44 or 42 higher quality chromosomes.

No, it is just sperm and needs an alien egg to be life. [Divide by 2] But it also needs an alien host.

Now, Wonder if that alien sperm only needed a human anal cell to grow.

Guess my question is, would you let an advanced life form grow in your ass?

Is abortion an option. :D

[WJWheels]

WTF does your answer (rock crevice, Mars, anal cells) have to do with Rightie's question - When, EXACTLY, does a developing baby become a 'human?

I know it's sometimes difficult for you ADD types to concentrate on a simple question, but please try to make your answer relative to an already fertilized egg developing in a human female.

[RightElephant]

Bob, you're killing your own arguement. In fact, you are killing the entire pro-choice arguement. You have proven that you cannot answer the question. That proves our side. For anyone to continue to successfully debate us pro-lifers, they, your own side must disown you and your arguements. You are incapable of responding to a challenge of your side, hence you are incapable of debate. Either that, or you have finally realized that that question simply cannot be answered logically, or morally.

[Sauron]

When that egg with a sperm cell goes down that um river...that is the beginning, while the egg is still a egg, it is already a new beginning. Because it has been fertilized.

[bob]

I answered. It is life BEFORE the egg meets the sperm.

[drisley]

Originally posted by bob
I answered. It is life BEFORE the egg meets the sperm.

Can someone tell me how this statement is supposed to support the pro-choice argument?

[bob]

A woman has the choice not to allow a sperm to fertalize her egg and the choice continues after the sperm joins the egg.
What is so hard?

[WJWheels]

I think bob had better have that little sit-down talk with Mommy & Daddy about the facts of life.

Ok, I'll try 1 more time.... from my previous post:please try to make your answer relative to an already fertilized egg developing in a human female. I think that statement is very clear to everyone but you bob. We're not concerned with when it's life.. shit, my venus flytrap plant here is life. We're only asking for your opinion as to exactly when the fertilized egg carried in the women's womb becomes a new human being.

:edit: to add the following statement: We know the woman legally has the choice to end the pregnancy, but that's not relevent to this thread.

[bob]

When it is born alive.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by bob
A woman has the choice not to allow a sperm to fertalize her egg and the choice continues after the sperm joins the egg.
What is so hard? Now that's plain stoopid! You just said the woman's choice "not to allow a sperm to fertalize her egg" continues after the sperm has already joined the egg. <- WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?

[bob]

Alive before and alive after. Not a baby. Just an egg and sperm that is combined.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by bob
When it is born alive. Whew! Thank you!

[RightElephant]

"I answered. It is life BEFORE the egg meets the sperm." -Bob

Bob, you have to just stop and listen. You have to try and be a little inteligent here and answer the question in the terms it is asked. I am going to teach you something.

It can be argued that every cell is a life.

Therefore there are millions and millions of living cells in a human body.

Yes, those are called human cells. However, they are not A human.

I am asking when the fetilized egg becomes a human.


Here is a little problem I find you have Bob: you don't
understand your parts of speech. I'm going to simplify them to your level:


Noun - person, place, or thing

Ajdective - a descriptive word that modifies a noun

Verb - a word of an action

Adverb a descriptive word that modifies a verb or adjective

Those are the basics. Start to understand them

Now try again:
At what point during pregnancy does the growing life become A human? ('a human' is a noun Bob, now look above and slowly read the definition for noun. Now be careful, this can be tricky. Don't confuse it with an adjective.)


Examples for Bob (Identify the capital words and their parts of speech.):

1) People have HUMAN cells.

2) I am a HUMAN.

3) A child is a HUMAN

4) A child has HUMAN skin cells.

5) Humans are BORN.



ANSWERS (Don't peek, I want you to really try hard Bob, I know it is tricky, just try.)
1)adjective
2)noun
3)noun
4)adjective
5)verb

If you passed the test with a 3/5 or higher answer my question again, if not ... well there just isn't hope.

[drisley]

Hheheh...

You know, regardless of position, if one had to read these series of abortion threads on this forum, you'd have to say that pro-life people can at least articulate their argument and debate it very well. You pro-choice guys depend on such arbitraries and can't defend your positions worth a shit.

[Quartzhunter]

Originally posted by drisley
Hheheh...

You know, regardless of position, if one had to read these series of abortion threads on this forum, you'd have to say that pro-life people can at least articulate their argument and debate it very well. You pro-choice guys depend on such arbitraries and can't defend your positions worth a shit.

Sure I can D:

I don't need an argument to defend my postion...It is my right to choose...and not YOURS to dictate...seems pretty cut and dry to me...I don't need a bible to stand behind and I think I have articulated quite nicely thank you.

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Quartzhunter
I don't need an argument to defend my postion...It is my right to choose...and not YOURS to dictate...seems pretty cut and dry to me...I don't need a bible to stand behind and I think I have articulated quite nicely thank you.

Qh... your response reminds me of the old question: WHY?.... to which the answer is: BECAUSE!

PS: for the record, neither Dris, most others, or I have stood behind, beside, on, or under a bible in regards to the abortion question.

[RightElephant]

Hey, Quartz. Laws dictate what is good for society. It is sort of their purpose. Laws dictate against people choosing to kill to fix their problems. Laws dictate against people choosing to steal. Laws Dictate For The Common Good. Now that is law, this thread is for morality.

[bob]

The law allows abortion of the embryo/fetus. That makes it right in the eyes of the law.

[drisley]

Wheels articulated my response quite nicely. Its very clear your opinion, Quartz, but you're not backing it up with anything other than re-affirming your opinion.

Nobody here is using the Bible as a basis. We don't need it to stand behind either.

[RightElephant]

"The law allows abortion of the embryo/fetus. That makes it right in the eyes of the law."

Wow, these pro-choicers really argue against themselves! Well ya know that slavery used to be allowed by law. Did that make it right in the eyes of law? No. It made it legal. But right and morality are different from legal actions even in the eyes of law. If nothing was ever wrong in the eyes of law then law would never change itself, it would see itself as always right.

[Quartzhunter]

Very fucking good driz...give the man a hand he finally got it!

There is nothing to back up... Bob seems to understand what the hell is the matter with the rest of you?

I just don't think I need to "defend" my posistion because I don't think it's wrong or in need of defending.

god, you guys crack me up. lol

[WJWheels]

Originally posted by Quartzhunter
There is nothing to back up... Bob seems to understand what the hell is the matter with the rest of you?Ok Qh.. now you've stepped in the big one. If you're the ONLY one who understands Bob's position, I guess it's up to you to explain it.. he sure as shit can't do it.

BTW.. don't be so combative. No-one is defending a position. We're merely explaining the reason for it. You haven't done that.

[bob]

I dont know Quartzhunter. You can try - hell you already have done it. ;)
How clear can anyone get when belief is the real basis for an opnion. Just believe me. :D

[RightElephant]

Quartz, I'll get to rebutting you later, but for now I have a question. WJ, who are you calling BTW?

[WJWheels]

I was still addressing Quartzhustler.

[bob]

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=btw


LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL :D :D :D

[RightElephant]

LOL, sorry, that one is new to me. ;)

[bob]

FYI, I bet it is. :D

[Quartzhunter]

rotflmao god I look forward to these beatings every day!!! Gotta go to work early...

[Sauron]

I never stood behind that. Only when I am really desperate, do I resort to about 2 paragraphs in it..I stand on my own two feet, able to judge the world as it is. Able to judge a lot of stuff as my eyes have not been fogged, shut, "opened" or otherwise touched. I think alone. No one thinks with me. No one gives me "ideas" or whats right and wrong.

[Quartzhunter]

Well suron I'm done being nice...and you are full of shit.
you have changed your story 2 or3 times on at least 2 subjects when the heat was on, you have jumped from the frying pan into the fire...

[Sauron]

Ok, just please remember how to write my name. I appreciate that. Think you are full of shit also. How dare you tell me that I am narrow minded, and your looking on my behalf? God made women alright, but He might have taught them to think with their brains.

[WJWheels]

And in the blue corner, wearing pink trunks and genuine Krispy Kreme tube top, weighing in at (never tell a woman's weight), we have the Smokin', Fartin', Tree Huggin' champeen of the Northwest - Quartzhustler

While in the red corner, wearing white trunks decorated with red swastikas, weighing in at 2 pounds short of keeper size, we have straight from the pure white woods of New (Live Free or Die) Hampshire... it's Sauron or James, but not Suron or Sharon

LET'S GET READY TO RUUUUMMMMMBBBLLEE!!!

[Chione]

That's really cute WJWheels. I think I'll put my money on Quartz. ;)

[Sauron]

No I want blue shorts with Iron Crosses:) Make them White Iron Crosses. And I bet I will still win...

[Quartzhunter]

better than what you are using for your brains....

[Quartzhunter]

oh yeah, in order "to win" you have to get to the end of the game and with additudes like yours, I doubt that you'll get to far in the game of life...

[Sauron]

I simply don't list my views out in the real world unless asked. I was kinda pulled into it on here. So don't blame me for your faults:)

[RightElephant]

FYI BOB, I'm sorry I had not seen or used BTW! Because, I am sure that someone as 'scholarly' (rolling my eyes) as yourself is a vocabulary genious. You have been wrong in a lot of your points, so don't get too proud when you know some tiny thing that I didn't. Expecially when it is just a way to make it easier to write 'by the way.' Bob, you have trouble coming up with real arguements. You rely on remarks with no basis in response to an aggressive debater. You have a pusillanimous style: you sit by without coming up with anything, wait for someone to say something a little off, and you make some uneducated attack on it. Grow up.

And guys, lets get off the personal attacks. Pro-lifers- don't let those pro-choicers get you off the arguement of morality. You have them there, so don't let them get you to digress. When they have trouble justifying murder, they turn to personal attacks. Its the same as elections and other debates: the liberals turn to personally attacking those who have an up on them in a debate.

[bob]

Us against them. BTW, Is Sharon one of you?

[RightElephant]

U mean a pro-lifer?

[bob]

Yes. A pro-lifer. But also wanting to kill/banish anything that is not white or under God.

Now, don't digress. Can someone like that be a member of your cause?

[RightElephant]

Originally posted by bob
Yes. A pro-lifer. But also wanting to kill/banish anything that is not white or under God.

Now, don't digress. Can someone like that be a member of your cause?

Wait, where are you getting these ideas?

[bob]

Time for you to read Saurons posts. :D

[Sauron]

Now I NEVER EVER SAID to kill or banish anyone not white. And I never said anything about killing anyone not under my God...well I am starting to get that maniac look on my eyes, and my eyes are looking at you....beware Bob! Don't put words in my mouth.

[Quartzhunter]

Sumoron:

I didn't click the mouse you did, and you keep coming back, so don't blame me that you are here.;)

Re: Damn it man! Quit saying that we don't have morals or I'm gonna find someone who gives a shit and tell on you!!

WJ: I'm just not sure what the hell my response should be to you, Im to busy laughing to think...smartass.

Thanx Chione, I need a cheerleader!!!

[RightElephant]

Didn't say you don't have morals, just said they are different than mine. And if babies are babies, they are different from the law's.

NOW PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE:

Finally, just define when a life becomes human! You guys have failed to do that, and that is the only place where legally and morally your arguement can be defended.

[Quartzhunter]

RE, dearest RE, do you want MY opinon on that, ok let me ask you when does it stop being an embryo and start being a fully formed fetus?

[Sauron]

You mean when the baby starts to form? Or when the baby is created?

[RightElephant]

Before I answer that question Quartz, are you asking because you believe that is the change over? I believe me asking that is a fair question. It will alter my wording since I believe both stages are human and if you do not, I can't just state the scientific change, I must fully define it.

[Quartzhunter]

RE, you are so annoying that you are cute.


The third trimester, what the law states.